Author: Will Singleton
Date: 22:28:25 02/05/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 05, 2003 at 23:23:39, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 05, 2003 at 22:03:02, Will Singleton wrote: > >>On February 05, 2003 at 21:01:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:31:34, Will Singleton wrote: >>> >>>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:03:27, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:40:37, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:29:14, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:05:27, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:00:11, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Of course my engine thinks that it is winning big time after 16 g3 >>>>>>>>>(instead of Bxh7+). >>>>>>>>>Is there any engine out there that doesn't agree? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The position: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]rnb1r1k1/pp3ppp/2p5/3p4/3P1Pnq/P1NBPK2/1PQBN1P1/R4R2 w - - 0 16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>After analyzing with Ruffian, the following moves seem to be the best: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>16.g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Bd3 and white is >>>>>>>>much better. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(btw, if 18.Kg2 Qh2+ Kf3 g6! =+) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So, perhaps there's something wrong after 18.Ke1... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hmmm.. Ruffian doesn't see anything after 14 ply, still has the main line above >>>>>>>>at over 1 pawn for white. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I can't see it. Anyone have a clue? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My engine also doesn't see it (neither do I, but that's not amazing ;)) >>>>>>>16. g3 wins, period. >>>>>>>Or is there something hidden in the deep? >>>>>>>Or was kasparov a little bit afraid? >>>>>>>Or is Rolf right after all? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Martin >>>>>> >>>>>>Actually, I think my analysis was wrong. After 16.g3, black plays Qh2 instead >>>>>>of Nh2+, and then it's far from clear. Black looks like it will at least >>>>>>equalize, and with white's king stuck in the center, black could win it. >>>>>> >>>>>>It appears GK can see far more than your average run-of-the-mill GM commentator. >>>>>> >>>>>>Will >>>>> >>>>>After 16...Qh2 white could play 17.Bxh7+ in case 17.f5 17...h5 or even 17...Nd7 >>>>>18.Kxg4 Qg2 is too dangerous for white. >>>>>White should be safe after 17.Bxh7+. >>>>> >>>>>Michael >>>> >>>>Yes, it looks like you're right. >>>> >>>>Will >>> >>> >>>When Kasparov chose Bxh7, he took a long time. Crafty was analyzing the >>>game live on ICC and turned in this 16 ply search result: >>> >>> 16-> 33:34 1.59 16. g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18. Ke1 Qh3 >>> 19. Rg1 Nd7 20. Kd1 Nf2+ 21. Kc1 Nb6 >>> 22. Re1 Nxd3+ 23. Qxd3 Bf5 24. Ng1 >>> Qg4 25. e4 Bxe4 26. Nxe4 dxe4 27. Rxe4 >>> Rxe4 28. Qxe4 Qxg3 >>> >>>After the Bxh7 move, I instantly got this: >>> >>> 10-> 2.86 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> 11 4.41 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> 11-> 5.46 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>> 12 9.92 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> 12-> 15.30 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>> 13 29.72 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> 13-> 39.29 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>> 14 1:09 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> 14-> 1:39 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>> 15 2:47 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>> 19. Kf3 >>> >>>I would have preferred to see the g3 line myself... It looked (to me anyway) >>>that white had a lot of life left there and was a piece up... The attack might >>>have looked scarey, but it really didn't appear to be so to the computer... >>> >>>I think he is simply not up to playing more games vs the computer. If I were >>>to venture a really outlandish opinion, rather than saying "DJ is maybe as >>>strong as DB" I now might say "DB might really be as weak as DJ". It appears >>>that Kasparov just doesn't have what it takes to play a 6 game match vs the >>>machines... Not having been there playing for a million bucks, I can't claim >>>to understand this. But I have played _many_ games against the machines (mine >>>and others) and I must say "I don't get it" myself... >> >>Maybe you misunderstood. The apparent best line is not 16.Bxh7+, but rather >>16.g3 Qh2 17.Bxh7+... so yes, g3 appears better than what GK played, but only >>by a small margin. Crafty doesn't see that 16...Nh2+ is perhaps weaker than >>Qh2. >> >>Will > > >OK... I was only considering 16. g3 vs 16. Bxh7. > >I ran crafty after Qh2 rather than Nh2+... > >It (so far) thinks white is significantly better off after Qh2 than after >Nh2+. Here's the output so far: > > 13-> 5:54 2.15 2. f5 h5 3. Rae1 Nd7 4. e4 Qh3 5. Nf4 > Nge5+ 6. dxe5 Nxe5+ 7. Kf2 Qh2+ 8. > Ke3 Qxg3+ 9. Kd4 Nf3+ 10. Kc5 Nxe1 > 11. Rxe1 > 14-> 23:40 1.96 2. f5 Nd7 3. Kxg4 Qg2 4. e4 Nf6+ 5. > Kf4 dxe4 6. Bxe4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 Qxe2 > 8. Rae1 Rxe4+ 9. Qxe4 Qxd2+ 10. Qe3 > Qxe3+ 11. Rxe3 Bd7 (s=2) Using Ruffian, Chessmaster and Crafty, the lines are unclear. It appears to me to be extremely complex, and I haven't the ability to know what's going on. My gut feeling is that GK felt he couldn't analyze it to a certain outcome, and took the certain draw. A good decision, I think. Will
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