Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 11:37:38 02/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 06, 2003 at 14:16:48, Frank Phillips wrote: >On February 06, 2003 at 03:26:41, Peter McKenzie wrote: > >>On February 06, 2003 at 01:28:25, Will Singleton wrote: >> >>>On February 05, 2003 at 23:23:39, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On February 05, 2003 at 22:03:02, Will Singleton wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 21:01:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:31:34, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:03:27, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:40:37, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:29:14, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:05:27, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:00:11, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Of course my engine thinks that it is winning big time after 16 g3 >>>>>>>>>>>>(instead of Bxh7+). >>>>>>>>>>>>Is there any engine out there that doesn't agree? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Martin >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The position: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>[D]rnb1r1k1/pp3ppp/2p5/3p4/3P1Pnq/P1NBPK2/1PQBN1P1/R4R2 w - - 0 16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>After analyzing with Ruffian, the following moves seem to be the best: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>16.g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Bd3 and white is >>>>>>>>>>>much better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(btw, if 18.Kg2 Qh2+ Kf3 g6! =+) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>So, perhaps there's something wrong after 18.Ke1... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hmmm.. Ruffian doesn't see anything after 14 ply, still has the main line above >>>>>>>>>>>at over 1 pawn for white. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I can't see it. Anyone have a clue? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>My engine also doesn't see it (neither do I, but that's not amazing ;)) >>>>>>>>>>16. g3 wins, period. >>>>>>>>>>Or is there something hidden in the deep? >>>>>>>>>>Or was kasparov a little bit afraid? >>>>>>>>>>Or is Rolf right after all? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Actually, I think my analysis was wrong. After 16.g3, black plays Qh2 instead >>>>>>>>>of Nh2+, and then it's far from clear. Black looks like it will at least >>>>>>>>>equalize, and with white's king stuck in the center, black could win it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It appears GK can see far more than your average run-of-the-mill GM commentator. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>After 16...Qh2 white could play 17.Bxh7+ in case 17.f5 17...h5 or even 17...Nd7 >>>>>>>>18.Kxg4 Qg2 is too dangerous for white. >>>>>>>>White should be safe after 17.Bxh7+. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, it looks like you're right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>When Kasparov chose Bxh7, he took a long time. Crafty was analyzing the >>>>>>game live on ICC and turned in this 16 ply search result: >>>>>> >>>>>> 16-> 33:34 1.59 16. g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18. Ke1 Qh3 >>>>>> 19. Rg1 Nd7 20. Kd1 Nf2+ 21. Kc1 Nb6 >>>>>> 22. Re1 Nxd3+ 23. Qxd3 Bf5 24. Ng1 >>>>>> Qg4 25. e4 Bxe4 26. Nxe4 dxe4 27. Rxe4 >>>>>> Rxe4 28. Qxe4 Qxg3 >>>>>> >>>>>>After the Bxh7 move, I instantly got this: >>>>>> >>>>>> 10-> 2.86 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> 11 4.41 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> 11-> 5.46 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>> 12 9.92 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> 12-> 15.30 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>> 13 29.72 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> 13-> 39.29 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>> 14 1:09 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> 14-> 1:39 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>> 15 2:47 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>> >>>>>>I would have preferred to see the g3 line myself... It looked (to me anyway) >>>>>>that white had a lot of life left there and was a piece up... The attack might >>>>>>have looked scarey, but it really didn't appear to be so to the computer... >>>>>> >>>>>>I think he is simply not up to playing more games vs the computer. If I were >>>>>>to venture a really outlandish opinion, rather than saying "DJ is maybe as >>>>>>strong as DB" I now might say "DB might really be as weak as DJ". It appears >>>>>>that Kasparov just doesn't have what it takes to play a 6 game match vs the >>>>>>machines... Not having been there playing for a million bucks, I can't claim >>>>>>to understand this. But I have played _many_ games against the machines (mine >>>>>>and others) and I must say "I don't get it" myself... >>>>> >>>>>Maybe you misunderstood. The apparent best line is not 16.Bxh7+, but rather >>>>>16.g3 Qh2 17.Bxh7+... so yes, g3 appears better than what GK played, but only >>>>>by a small margin. Crafty doesn't see that 16...Nh2+ is perhaps weaker than >>>>>Qh2. >>>>> >>>>>Will >>>> >>>> >>>>OK... I was only considering 16. g3 vs 16. Bxh7. >>>> >>>>I ran crafty after Qh2 rather than Nh2+... >>>> >>>>It (so far) thinks white is significantly better off after Qh2 than after >>>>Nh2+. Here's the output so far: >>>> >>>> 13-> 5:54 2.15 2. f5 h5 3. Rae1 Nd7 4. e4 Qh3 5. Nf4 >>>> Nge5+ 6. dxe5 Nxe5+ 7. Kf2 Qh2+ 8. >>>> Ke3 Qxg3+ 9. Kd4 Nf3+ 10. Kc5 Nxe1 >>>> 11. Rxe1 >>>> 14-> 23:40 1.96 2. f5 Nd7 3. Kxg4 Qg2 4. e4 Nf6+ 5. >>>> Kf4 dxe4 6. Bxe4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 Qxe2 >>>> 8. Rae1 Rxe4+ 9. Qxe4 Qxd2+ 10. Qe3 >>>> Qxe3+ 11. Rxe3 Bd7 (s=2) >>> >>>Using Ruffian, Chessmaster and Crafty, the lines are unclear. It appears to me >>>to be extremely complex, and I haven't the ability to know what's going on. My >>>gut feeling is that GK felt he couldn't analyze it to a certain outcome, and >>>took the certain draw. A good decision, I think. >> >>That sounds like a reasonable conclusion. >> >>> >>>Will > > >Plausible, probably correct, but disappointing. Unless should the winning >attempt fail and lead directly to a loss, I cannot understand why he did not at >least try. It shows at best a lack of fighting spirit; at worst maybe fear. >Good job they cannot take the purse back for a no contest - by GK not DJ. He is >after all the best human chess player in history, probably. This looked like >being the first 'real' games, with DJ having to prove the value of the sacrifice >(which I believe it really was) and GK that it was unsound. > >Frank My 2 cts. The game was made up before for a draw. After the third game K was "out of the match". :) Rolf Tueschen
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