Author: Uri Blass
Date: 12:55:22 02/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 06, 2003 at 14:37:38, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On February 06, 2003 at 14:16:48, Frank Phillips wrote: > >>On February 06, 2003 at 03:26:41, Peter McKenzie wrote: >> >>>On February 06, 2003 at 01:28:25, Will Singleton wrote: >>> >>>>On February 05, 2003 at 23:23:39, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 22:03:02, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 21:01:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:31:34, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 19:03:27, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:40:37, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:29:14, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:05:27, Will Singleton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 18:00:11, Martin Giepmans wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course my engine thinks that it is winning big time after 16 g3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>(instead of Bxh7+). >>>>>>>>>>>>>Is there any engine out there that doesn't agree? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Martin >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The position: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>[D]rnb1r1k1/pp3ppp/2p5/3p4/3P1Pnq/P1NBPK2/1PQBN1P1/R4R2 w - - 0 16 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>After analyzing with Ruffian, the following moves seem to be the best: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>16.g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Bd3 and white is >>>>>>>>>>>>much better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(btw, if 18.Kg2 Qh2+ Kf3 g6! =+) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>So, perhaps there's something wrong after 18.Ke1... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Hmmm.. Ruffian doesn't see anything after 14 ply, still has the main line above >>>>>>>>>>>>at over 1 pawn for white. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I can't see it. Anyone have a clue? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>My engine also doesn't see it (neither do I, but that's not amazing ;)) >>>>>>>>>>>16. g3 wins, period. >>>>>>>>>>>Or is there something hidden in the deep? >>>>>>>>>>>Or was kasparov a little bit afraid? >>>>>>>>>>>Or is Rolf right after all? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Actually, I think my analysis was wrong. After 16.g3, black plays Qh2 instead >>>>>>>>>>of Nh2+, and then it's far from clear. Black looks like it will at least >>>>>>>>>>equalize, and with white's king stuck in the center, black could win it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>It appears GK can see far more than your average run-of-the-mill GM commentator. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>After 16...Qh2 white could play 17.Bxh7+ in case 17.f5 17...h5 or even 17...Nd7 >>>>>>>>>18.Kxg4 Qg2 is too dangerous for white. >>>>>>>>>White should be safe after 17.Bxh7+. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yes, it looks like you're right. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Will >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>When Kasparov chose Bxh7, he took a long time. Crafty was analyzing the >>>>>>>game live on ICC and turned in this 16 ply search result: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 16-> 33:34 1.59 16. g3 Nh2+ 17. Kf2 Ng4+ 18. Ke1 Qh3 >>>>>>> 19. Rg1 Nd7 20. Kd1 Nf2+ 21. Kc1 Nb6 >>>>>>> 22. Re1 Nxd3+ 23. Qxd3 Bf5 24. Ng1 >>>>>>> Qg4 25. e4 Bxe4 26. Nxe4 dxe4 27. Rxe4 >>>>>>> Rxe4 28. Qxe4 Qxg3 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>After the Bxh7 move, I instantly got this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 10-> 2.86 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> 11 4.41 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> 11-> 5.46 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>>> 12 9.92 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> 12-> 15.30 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>>> 13 29.72 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> 13-> 39.29 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>>> 14 1:09 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> 14-> 1:39 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 (s=2) >>>>>>> 15 2:47 0.00 16. ... Kh8 17. Ng3 Nh2+ 18. Kf2 Ng4+ >>>>>>> 19. Kf3 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would have preferred to see the g3 line myself... It looked (to me anyway) >>>>>>>that white had a lot of life left there and was a piece up... The attack might >>>>>>>have looked scarey, but it really didn't appear to be so to the computer... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think he is simply not up to playing more games vs the computer. If I were >>>>>>>to venture a really outlandish opinion, rather than saying "DJ is maybe as >>>>>>>strong as DB" I now might say "DB might really be as weak as DJ". It appears >>>>>>>that Kasparov just doesn't have what it takes to play a 6 game match vs the >>>>>>>machines... Not having been there playing for a million bucks, I can't claim >>>>>>>to understand this. But I have played _many_ games against the machines (mine >>>>>>>and others) and I must say "I don't get it" myself... >>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe you misunderstood. The apparent best line is not 16.Bxh7+, but rather >>>>>>16.g3 Qh2 17.Bxh7+... so yes, g3 appears better than what GK played, but only >>>>>>by a small margin. Crafty doesn't see that 16...Nh2+ is perhaps weaker than >>>>>>Qh2. >>>>>> >>>>>>Will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>OK... I was only considering 16. g3 vs 16. Bxh7. >>>>> >>>>>I ran crafty after Qh2 rather than Nh2+... >>>>> >>>>>It (so far) thinks white is significantly better off after Qh2 than after >>>>>Nh2+. Here's the output so far: >>>>> >>>>> 13-> 5:54 2.15 2. f5 h5 3. Rae1 Nd7 4. e4 Qh3 5. Nf4 >>>>> Nge5+ 6. dxe5 Nxe5+ 7. Kf2 Qh2+ 8. >>>>> Ke3 Qxg3+ 9. Kd4 Nf3+ 10. Kc5 Nxe1 >>>>> 11. Rxe1 >>>>> 14-> 23:40 1.96 2. f5 Nd7 3. Kxg4 Qg2 4. e4 Nf6+ 5. >>>>> Kf4 dxe4 6. Bxe4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 Qxe2 >>>>> 8. Rae1 Rxe4+ 9. Qxe4 Qxd2+ 10. Qe3 >>>>> Qxe3+ 11. Rxe3 Bd7 (s=2) >>>> >>>>Using Ruffian, Chessmaster and Crafty, the lines are unclear. It appears to me >>>>to be extremely complex, and I haven't the ability to know what's going on. My >>>>gut feeling is that GK felt he couldn't analyze it to a certain outcome, and >>>>took the certain draw. A good decision, I think. >>> >>>That sounds like a reasonable conclusion. >>> >>>> >>>>Will >> >> >>Plausible, probably correct, but disappointing. Unless should the winning >>attempt fail and lead directly to a loss, I cannot understand why he did not at >>least try. It shows at best a lack of fighting spirit; at worst maybe fear. >>Good job they cannot take the purse back for a no contest - by GK not DJ. He is >>after all the best human chess player in history, probably. This looked like >>being the first 'real' games, with DJ having to prove the value of the sacrifice >>(which I believe it really was) and GK that it was unsound. >> >>Frank > >My 2 cts. The game was made up before for a draw. After the third game K was >"out of the match". > >:) > >Rolf Tueschen Does it mean that you believe that Junior will lose the last game? Note that I believe that the position was a forced draw also after g3 but unfortunately the proof is more than some mbytes of data so I cannot post it. :) seriously I analyze the line that Movei continue to suggest even at depth 17. I guess that the following perpetual check is the best for white. 16.g3 Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Kf3 Nh2+ If I follow the line of movei I get 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Nd1 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Rf2 and now not Qh5(Movei's main line) but Bg4 seems interesting for black. Deep Fritz6 on p850 seems to be happy at this moment(Fritz8 is busy in analyzing one of my correspondence games together with Shredder7 in another computer so I did not ask it). [D]rnb1r2k/pp3ppB/2p5/3p4/3P1P2/P3P1Pq/1PQBNR1n/R2NK3 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 21...Qxh7! +- (2.87) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 21...Qxh7! 22.Qxh7+ Kxh7 +- (2.78) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 21...Nf3+! +- (2.72) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 21...Nf3+ 22.Rxf3 Qxh7 +- (2.72) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 21...Ng4! +- (2.66) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 21...Ng4! 22.Bd3 Nxf2 +- (1.84) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 21...Bg4! +- (1.81) Depth: 2/12 00:00:00 21...Bg4 22.Ng1 Qxg3 23.Ne2 +- (1.91) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00 1kN 21...Ng4! +- (1.84) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00 1kN 21...Ng4 22.Bd3 Nxf2 23.Nxf2 +- (1.84) Depth: 4/18 00:00:00 1kN 21...Bg4! +- (1.81) Depth: 4/18 00:00:00 2kN 21...Bg4! 22.Bd3 +- (1.50) Depth: 4/18 00:00:00 3kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.e4 Bxe4 27.Bxe4 +- (1.59) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 8kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.e4 Bxe4 27.Bxe4 +- (1.53) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 17kN 21...Bg4 22.Bb4 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Bf5 Qg2 +- (1.50) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 70kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qe6 25.Rd1 ± (1.37) Depth: 8/20 00:00:00 130kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 Bxe2 26.Kxe2 ± (1.28) Depth: 9/27 00:00:00 358kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qe6 25.f5 Qf6 26.Nc3 +- (1.41) Depth: 10/27 00:00:01 658kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qe6 25.Bf5 Qe7 26.Qc5 Qf6 27.g4 +- (1.41) Depth: 11/29 00:00:02 1625kN 21...Qh5! ± (1.37) Depth: 11/29 00:00:03 2228kN 21...Qh5 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Qxf3 24.Bb4 Qh1+ 25.Kd2 Bg4 26.Bd6 Bxe2 27.Bxe2 +- (1.50) Depth: 12/31 00:00:06 4416kN 21...Bg4! +- (1.47) Depth: 12/31 00:00:08 5207kN 21...Bg4! 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.e4 +- (1.41) Depth: 12/34 00:00:10 6729kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.f5 Bxe2 27.Kxe2 ± (1.16) Depth: 13/33 00:00:29 19144kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.f5 Kg8 27.f6 ± (1.28) Depth: 14/38 00:00:52 34830kN 21...Bg4 22.Bd3 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 Bxf3 24.Nf2 Qg2 25.Qb3 b6 26.f5 Kg8 27.f6 ± (1.22) Depth: 15/38 00:02:16 88610kN 21...Bg4! ± (0.91) Depth: 16/45 00:13:34 535824kN (blass, tel-aviv 06.02.2003) Uri
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