Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 05:58:28 02/24/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 24, 2003 at 05:36:11, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On February 23, 2003 at 20:34:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On February 23, 2003 at 18:17:02, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>As usual I research the more general problems, since I am not a born programmer. >>> >>>When I see that many people in CC support around 200 amateurs - that's how they >>>are called- who created FREE programs, and certain spin doctors who write about >>>"difficulties" for the "professional" experts, I see several questions. >>> >>> >>>1) Who created the many features say of the ChessBase database program? FREE >>>amateurs or professionals? >>> >>>2) Could someone tell me what feature, just 1 example because I don't know any, >>>was at first created by amateurs? >> >>The chess programs themselves. >> >>Endgame databases. >> >>Opening books. >> >>Graphical displays. >> >>game annotation features >> >>ECO opening classification by the computer. >> >>The ability to search thru large opening databases, citing win/lose/draw >>percentages, who played the game, etc. >> >>I can't think of _much_ that was _not_ created by "amateurs"... > >Stupid me! Didn't get the exact questioning. Ok, let's take the display. The >base of such a feature was inveted long ago, but then it's a totally different >thing what content, chess related, is concerned. And I was only talking about >such details. From the perspective of chessplayers. > >You deny the cloning of ChessBase features because their code is secret but I'm >not satisfied with such an answer! With cloning I don't mean the exact copy of a >product. I meant the re-coding of a feature that was INVENTED by a professional >company. I can't think of anything that was _invented_ by a commercial company, in the realm of computer chess. IE toss out an idea you think originated with them and I'll see if I can find a reference to the amateur that originally used the idea. Remember, the first computer chess tournament was held in 1970. There was _no_ commercial computer chess programs around until the micros came along, many years later. > >The whole debate and your short-cut answer gives me the impression that in chess >there is no respect for the creations for the benefit of mankind, here chess >people. What is the exact meaning of copyright? If you write code, it is _yours_. Nobody can copy the code itself. "look and feel" is another issue, otherwise we would not have windows at all nor the macintosh, since Xerox developed that years ago. > >NB that I do NOT have programs like Crafty in mind a more academic work in >progress with open source! > > >> >>> >>>3) I read that people adore FREE programs like ARENA. They are proud that ARENA >>>has all the features, or almost all, ChessBase also has; I ask if ARENA is a >>>clone of ChessBase8? >> >>Impossible. Chessbase doesn't publish their source. >> >> >>> >>>4) As a more technical question: Is a smart amateur programmer able to program a >>>clone of professional products? Or is cloning impossible if the code is secret? >>> >>>5) Could someone show - perhaps for other fields - what results out of the so >>>called copying of professional ideas and products? Isn't it the consequence that >>>the professional creative people become exhausted? >>> >>>6) Then, is't it a consequence that then also the amateurs have no longer >>>something to copy? [NB I do NOT say that amateurs only copy all day long. See >>>point 4 where I ask if copying is possible.] >>> >>>7) Who could tell me how the development in a field continues in case of >>>amateurs cloning? >> >>Amateurs exist in _all_ fields and all disciplines. So I don't get your >>point... > >See above. Amateurs in that sense that they "copy" existing features of a chess >software. And then offer it for free to the users. I don't see the reason for >such a nonsense or it is for academical examinations. I don't understand "such a nonsense". I can't think of a single thing that a pro chess program did _first_. They might have taken an idea and refined it or expanded it, but I'd be hard-pressed to point to something they developed as new and unique, that wasn't done by some amateur/academic previously. NOt that they couldn't, but the amateurs were simply "first" because they came first in the development phase. > > > >> >> >>> >>>8) In short: I see the danger of less progress and NOT- what the supporters and >>>fans are doing - a higher coloring of a scene. >> >>Makes no sense to me. In the beginning there were _nothing_ but amateur >>chess programs around. They started it all. > >You are saying that ChessBase programs are just a copy themselves? Using a weak definition, yes. I watched a computer chess tournament at the 1970 ACM conference. Commercial computer chess was unknown. 10 years later it was just getting started. 10 years + after the amateur engines were already playing. > >Rolf Tueschen > > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>What do you think? >>> >>>Rolf Tueschen
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