Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:37:50 02/24/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 24, 2003 at 09:17:41, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On February 24, 2003 at 08:58:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On February 24, 2003 at 05:36:11, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>On February 23, 2003 at 20:34:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On February 23, 2003 at 18:17:02, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>> >>>>>As usual I research the more general problems, since I am not a born programmer. >>>>> >>>>>When I see that many people in CC support around 200 amateurs - that's how they >>>>>are called- who created FREE programs, and certain spin doctors who write about >>>>>"difficulties" for the "professional" experts, I see several questions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>1) Who created the many features say of the ChessBase database program? FREE >>>>>amateurs or professionals? >>>>> >>>>>2) Could someone tell me what feature, just 1 example because I don't know any, >>>>>was at first created by amateurs? >>>> >>>>The chess programs themselves. >>>> >>>>Endgame databases. >>>> >>>>Opening books. >>>> >>>>Graphical displays. >>>> >>>>game annotation features >>>> >>>>ECO opening classification by the computer. >>>> >>>>The ability to search thru large opening databases, citing win/lose/draw >>>>percentages, who played the game, etc. >>>> >>>>I can't think of _much_ that was _not_ created by "amateurs"... >>> >>>Stupid me! Didn't get the exact questioning. Ok, let's take the display. The >>>base of such a feature was inveted long ago, but then it's a totally different >>>thing what content, chess related, is concerned. And I was only talking about >>>such details. From the perspective of chessplayers. >>> >>>You deny the cloning of ChessBase features because their code is secret but I'm >>>not satisfied with such an answer! With cloning I don't mean the exact copy of a >>>product. I meant the re-coding of a feature that was INVENTED by a professional >>>company. >> >>I can't think of anything that was _invented_ by a commercial company, in the >>realm of computer chess. IE toss out an idea you think originated with them >>and I'll see if I can find a reference to the amateur that originally used >>the idea. Remember, the first computer chess tournament was held in 1970. >>There was _no_ commercial computer chess programs around until the micros >>came along, many years later. >> >> >> >> >>> >>>The whole debate and your short-cut answer gives me the impression that in chess >>>there is no respect for the creations for the benefit of mankind, here chess >>>people. What is the exact meaning of copyright? >> >>If you write code, it is _yours_. Nobody can copy the code itself. "look >>and feel" is another issue, otherwise we would not have windows at all nor >>the macintosh, since Xerox developed that years ago. >> >> >>> >>>NB that I do NOT have programs like Crafty in mind a more academic work in >>>progress with open source! >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>3) I read that people adore FREE programs like ARENA. They are proud that ARENA >>>>>has all the features, or almost all, ChessBase also has; I ask if ARENA is a >>>>>clone of ChessBase8? >>>> >>>>Impossible. Chessbase doesn't publish their source. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>4) As a more technical question: Is a smart amateur programmer able to program a >>>>>clone of professional products? Or is cloning impossible if the code is secret? >>>>> >>>>>5) Could someone show - perhaps for other fields - what results out of the so >>>>>called copying of professional ideas and products? Isn't it the consequence that >>>>>the professional creative people become exhausted? >>>>> >>>>>6) Then, is't it a consequence that then also the amateurs have no longer >>>>>something to copy? [NB I do NOT say that amateurs only copy all day long. See >>>>>point 4 where I ask if copying is possible.] >>>>> >>>>>7) Who could tell me how the development in a field continues in case of >>>>>amateurs cloning? >>>> >>>>Amateurs exist in _all_ fields and all disciplines. So I don't get your >>>>point... >>> >>>See above. Amateurs in that sense that they "copy" existing features of a chess >>>software. And then offer it for free to the users. I don't see the reason for >>>such a nonsense or it is for academical examinations. >> >>I don't understand "such a nonsense". I can't think of a single thing that >>a pro chess program did _first_. They might have taken an idea and refined >>it or expanded it, but I'd be hard-pressed to point to something they developed >>as new and unique, that wasn't done by some amateur/academic previously. NOt >>that they couldn't, but the amateurs were simply "first" because they came first >>in the development phase. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>8) In short: I see the danger of less progress and NOT- what the supporters and >>>>>fans are doing - a higher coloring of a scene. >>>> >>>>Makes no sense to me. In the beginning there were _nothing_ but amateur >>>>chess programs around. They started it all. >>> >>>You are saying that ChessBase programs are just a copy themselves? >> >>Using a weak definition, yes. I watched a computer chess tournament at the >>1970 ACM conference. Commercial computer chess was unknown. 10 years later >>it was just getting started. 10 years + after the amateur engines were already >>playing. > > >Horror! > >What you say is a complete turning of what I (and possibly many users) believed. >I always believed in the philosophy that pro's had more time and all so that >THEY led the 'development progress'. Sorry, but it didn't happen that way. :) > >a) THen is it all tuning against the known amateurs that still professional >progs win in tournaments? Or what is the secret? I always read that they had >that bit of advantage and believed that bit meant innovations.However without >knowing them. > The pros have a couple of advantages: 1. They spend more time developing, and they may have a full-time group of people working on various parts of things, from evaluating openings, to working on the GUI, to you-name-it. Most amateurs have other jobs and work on chess on a part- time basis, with varying amounts of time spent on chess. 2. They don't reveal what they do, but they _do_ have access to all the things published by "amateurs" from source code, to technical papers, to panel discussions. That is a one-way information flow. Computer chess has grown over the years thanks to the many "baby steps" taken by many people but then _reported_ and _explained_ fully so that others can build on the ideas. 3. The pros are much more organized in testing, and have multiple machines dedicated to playing programs, with a person or persons responsible for looking at the games played to see what is going on... >b) Well here is a questio also to Alistair: > >The trick that CB [NB don't confuse with Fritz, I speak about the database] has >these engines that you could use for the different moves in the notation, either >main line or variations, this sort of jumping and at the same time with >different engines on different moves - who invented it?? I'll toss in one point. Ken Thompson did the first chess database. In the 1970's. His opening book was a big database of GM-type games. He could search for positions, search for moves, search for players, search for results, search for dates/ locations where the game was played, etc... > > >Rolf Tueschen > > >> >> >> >>> >>>Rolf Tueschen >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>What do you think? >>>>> >>>>>Rolf Tueschen
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