Author: Kurt Utzinger
Date: 13:37:59 03/26/03
Go up one level in this thread
On March 26, 2003 at 16:22:47, Peter Berger wrote:
>On March 26, 2003 at 15:27:39, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>
>>On March 26, 2003 at 06:28:52, Peter Berger wrote:
>>
>>>These can be tough or very easy depending on engine - some engines seem to know
>>>too much here. They are also interesting for humans I think.
>>>
>>>6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - - 0 1
>>>
>>>1..Qxe3! wins for black.
>>
>> Hi Peter
>> Do you really think that in these positons it is a matter of knowledge
>> for chess programs?
>
>Yes, I do - see below.
>
>
>I doubt and assume it's simply a matter of search and
>> calculation.
>
>This depends on the time availlable. You not only want to solve it, but you want
>to solve it fast enough.
>
>
>>We can see this from analysis with Rebel 12 Beta1. In the first
>> position it's easy to see for the program that white will lose a pawn. In
>> the second position, Rebel needs 9m2s to come to a slightly negative
>> evaluation for ... Qxe3?
>
>See?
Hi Peter
Sorry, I forgot to post the analysis of Rebel 12 Beta2 for the first
position where the program sees an win within some seconds only. This
made me think that it's not a question of chess knowledge.
Kurt
Thinking....
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ End 1 - Pos 1
8 | | | | | | | *K| |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 00:00:00 00:00:00
7 | *p| | | | | *p| | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
6 | | | | | | | *p| | Time infinite
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Hash 28 Mb
5 | | p | | | *p| | | *p| Engine Beta 1
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Personality beta1.eng
4 | | | | | *Q| | | p | anti-GM Off
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Tactics Off
3 | | | | | Q | | p | | Bluff Chess Off
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Style Normal
2 | p | | | | | p | | | Strength Strongest
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Search Nullmove
1 | | | | | | | K | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h
6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - -
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "??.??.????"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pos 1"]
[Black "End 1"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[FEN "6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
1..*
00:00:00 1.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3
00:00:00 2.00 0.19 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3
00:00:00 3.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.a4 Kf7
00:00:00 4.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.a4 Kf7
00:00:00 5.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kf7 4.a4 Ke6
5.a5 Kd5 6.Kf3 (0)
00:00:00 6.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kf7 4.a4 e4
5.a5 f4 (0)
00:00:00 7.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.Ke2 f5 6.Kd3 Kc5 (0)
00:00:00 8.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.Ke2 f5 6.Kd3 Kc5 (0)
00:00:01 9.00 0.39 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6
5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 f6 7.h5 f5 8.Kg5 gxh5
9.Kxh5 Kd5 10.a3 (0)
00:00:01 10.00 0.39 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6
5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 f6 7.h5 f5 8.Kg5 gxh5
9.Kxh5 Kd5 10.a3 (1)
00:00:02 11.00 1.00 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.a5 f6 6.e4 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.a6 (1)
00:00:03 12.00 1.49 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6
5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 Kd5 7.Kg5 Ke4 8.Kf6
Kxe3 9.Kxe5 f5 10.Kd5 f4 11.Kc4 (2)
00:00:06 13.00 1.80 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.a5 f6 6.Ke2 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.a6 Kc6
9.Kd3 b5 10.Kc3 Kb6 (4)
00:00:11 14.00 1.85 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kg2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.a5 Kc5 6.b6 axb6 7.a6 Kc6 8.Kf2 b5
9.Ke2 b4 (10)
00:00:20 15.00 2.05 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6
5.a5 Kc5 6.b6 axb6 7.axb6 Kxb6 8.Ke2
e4 9.Kd2 f6 10.Kc3 (15)
00:00:38 16.00 2.09 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6
5.Ke4 f6 6.Kd3 Kc5 7.Ke4 Kc4 8.a3 Kc5
9.b6 axb6 10.Kd3 f5 11.e4 (30)
00:01:38 17.00 2.14 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6
5.Ke4 f6 6.Kd3 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.Kc3 f5 (71)
Positions : 210.914.796
Nodes per second : 737.464
Extensions (checks) : 0 (0%)
Extensions (captures) : 0 (0%)
Extensions (king safety) : 0 (0%)
Extensions (on depth) : 0 (0%)
Extensions (remaining) : 0 (0%)
Extensions (total) : 0 (0%)
Hash Table : 22.784.670 9.996.066 (100%)
Average depth : 23
Deepest depth : 59
>
>>
>>00:09:02 15.00 -0.15 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Ke2 Ke7 4.Kd3 Ke6
>> 5.Kc4 f6 6.a3 g5 7.a4 Kd6 8.a5 g4 9.e4 (531)
>>
>
>Crafty might be overtuned for this motive. But if Rebel can't avoid Qxe3 in 9
>minutes trading in a completely lost pawnending it certainly has too little
>knowledge about outside passed pawns here. If it could search deep enough to see
>the trouble tactically it wouldn't matter.
>
>In fact the Rebel evaluation came as a very big surprise for me- it would lose
>this position at tournament time control!
>
>
>Everything in my very humble opinion - I am a user, not a chessprogrammer.
>
>Peter
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