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Subject: Re: An idea for saving space in tablebases

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:15:22 10/09/98

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On October 09, 1998 at 09:56:20, blass uri wrote:

>
>On October 09, 1998 at 09:35:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On October 09, 1998 at 08:54:02, blass uri wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On October 09, 1998 at 08:10:51, blass uri wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think it is better to store the number of moves to win in the tablebases only
>>>>if this number is divisible by 2 because otherwise you can compute the number of
>>>>moves by search.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe it is possible practically to store it only if it is divisble by 3 or 4 (I
>>>>do not know what is the speed of reading the tablebases from harddisk)
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>I think it is easy to save at least 1 bit per position by this idea if in
>>>positions when there is win in N when N is divisible by 2 you store win in N/2
>>>and in positions when there is a win in N when N is not divisible by 2 you store
>>>a win in 1(you can discover by search that it is not truth).
>>>
>>
>>
>>this is imposible to do.  KNN vs KP is a mate in over 100 moves.  How do
>>I separate mate in 50 from mate in 100?  I certainly can't search to find
>>this out...
>
>I mean that when you store the number N/2 you mean win in N
>
>you have only to search 2 plies because if you have mate in 99
>the tablebases will tell you the number 1
>You know by search that there is no mate in 2  but you have in the tablebase
>mates in 98 so by  searching 2 plies you can read from the tablebases the mate
>in 98 after 2 plies.
>Searching 2 plies and reading the tablebases after every 2 possible plies(you do
>not need every 2 possible because of the alpha beta  is not impossible
>>
>>


How do I tell the difference from a mate in 49 and a mate in 48.  And *that*
is critical, because if I keep choosing mates in 49 I am going to draw.  In
fact, a mate in 49 that I think is a mate in 48 is probably exactly enough to
draw if there are exactly 50 moves to the mate to start with...



>>
>>>By this idea you can use the same number of bits to every position.
>>>
>>>If you want to use different number of bits to every popsition you must add 1
>>>bit
>>>to tell if the is a position with win in number of moves divisible by 2 or not.
>>>
>>>of course if you lose it is not important to know the number of moves.
>>>
>>>I use the word win and not mate because it is a mistake to use mate
>>>because of the 50 move rule
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>distance to conversion has the same 50-move problem...
>
>why?
>If the distance is more than 50 then you know it is a draw.
>
>Uri


but if it is *less* than 50 you don't know this.  Yet you can find a score
that is "conversion in 30" after you have played 30 non-capturing moves and
it ends up wrong there too...  ie both have problems with the 50-move rule
the way they are computed...



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