Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 17:26:51 04/04/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 04, 2003 at 14:24:46, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>On April 03, 2003 at 13:55:16, Peter Berger wrote:
>
>>On April 03, 2003 at 13:07:53, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>
>>>On April 03, 2003 at 08:36:40, Eran wrote:
>>>
>>>>Which chess engine, Winboard or UCI, understands positional games very well and
>>>>is best at long time control games?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for any help.
>>>>
>>>>Eran
>>>
>>>No engines understand positional chess very well. Even the commercials dont.
>>>
>>>Many Capablanca games are good to test engines.
>>>Here is an example from Winter-Capablanca Hastings 1919:
>>>
>>>[D] r4rk1/ppp2p2/3b3p/2p1p1p1/4P3/3P1PBP/PPP2P2/R4RK1 b - - 0 15
>>>
>>>White was lost after 15...f6!.
>>>All engines I have tested like to play f5 sooner or later.
>>>This is a mistake because white is able to draw after exf5.
>>
>>I can understand to some extent why f5 could be bad, but I don't get what is so
>>great about ..f6. It would be nice if you could post the annotations, too, or
>>maybe add some explanation.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter
>
>
>I'm always a bit suspicious of these kinds of positions. IE do we _know_ that
>f6 wins?
>Or did it just win in that game?
>
>There's a difference.
15...f6 should win against Crafty :)
Crafty cant find something after 15...f5.
So we have some evidence...
[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "Athlon"]
[Date "2003.04.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Crafty 19.03"]
[Black "Drexel, Michael"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/ppp2p2/3b3p/2p1p1p1/4P3/3P1PBP/PPP2P2/R4RK1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[TimeControl "600"]
1... f6 2. Kg2 a5 3. Rh1 a4 4. h4 b5 5. hxg5 hxg5 6. Rad1 Kf7 7. Rh7+ Ke6 8.
Rdh1 c4 9. Kf1 a3 10. b3 cxb3 11. cxb3 Ra6 12. Ke2 Rc6 13. Rd1 Rc2+ 14. Rd2 Rb2
15. Rh1 Bb4 16. Rxb2 axb2 17. Rb1 Bc3 18. Kd1 Ra8 19. Kc2 b4 20. a4 bxa3 21.
Kxc3 a2 22. Kxb2 axb1=Q+ 23. Kxb1 Rd8 24. Kc2 Kd7 25. Kc3 c5 26. Kc4 Kc6 27.
Kc3 Kb5 28. Kd2 Kb4 29. Kc2 Ra8 30. Kb2 Ra3 31. Bh2 Rxb3+ 32. Kc2 Rc3+ 33. Kd2
Kb3 34. Bg3 Rc2+ 35. Ke3 Kc3 36. Bh2 Rd2 37. Bg3 Rxd3+ 0-1
[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "Athlon"]
[Date "2003.04.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Drexel, Michael"]
[Black "Crafty 19.03"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/ppp2p2/3b3p/2p1p1p1/4P3/3P1PBP/PPP2P2/R4RK1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "183"]
[TimeControl "600"]
1... f5 2. exf5 Rxf5 3. Kg2 Raf8 4. Rae1 Kf7 5. Re3 Ke6 6. Rfe1 a5 7. R1e2 c6
8. Re4 h5 9. a4 b6 10. b3 Kd5 11. Bh2 R8f7 12. Bg3 Rf8 13. Bh2 R8f7 14. Bg3 Bb8
15. Bh2 Bc7 16. Bg3 R7f6 17. Bh2 h4 18. R2e3 Bd6 19. Re2 Rf7 20. R2e3 Ke6 21.
Re2 Kd5 22. R2e3 R7f6 23. Re2 Rf8 24. R4e3 Bc7 25. Re4 Ke6 26. R4e3 Kd5 27. Re4
Bb8 28. R4e3 R8f6 29. Re4 Rf8 30. R4e3 Bd6 31. Re4 Ke6 32. R4e3 Kd5 33. Re4 Ke6
34. R4e3 Kf6 35. Re4 Bc7 36. R4e3 Bd6 37. Re4 Bc7 38. R4e3 Ke6 39. Re4 R8f7 40.
R4e3 Bd6 41. Re4 b5 42. R2e3 b4 43. Re2 Kd5 44. R4e3 R7f6 45. Re4 Bc7 46. R4e3
Bd6 47. Re4 Rf7 48. R4e3 Bc7 49. Re4 Rf8 50. R4e3 Bd6 51. Re4 Bb8 52. R4e3 Bd6
53. Re4 Re8 54. R2e3 Re6 55. Re2 Re8 56. R2e3 Re7 57. Re2 Rf6 58. R2e3 Rff7 59.
Re2 Re8 60. R2e3 Ree7 61. Re2 Re6 62. R2e3 Bc7 63. Re2 Rff6 64. R2e3 Rf7 65.
Re2 Rff6 66. R2e3 Rf5 67. Re2 Bb8 68. R2e3 Bc7 69. Re2 Ref6 70. R2e3 Rf8 71.
Re2 Bd6 72. R2e3 Bc7 73. Re2 Bd6 74. R2e3 Rc8 75. Re2 Bc7 76. R2e3 Re8 77. Re2
Bd8 78. R2e3 Bf6 79. Re2 Rf8 80. R2e3 Bg7 81. Re2 Bf6 82. R2e3 Rf7 83. Re2 Bg7
84. R2e3 Bh8 85. Re2 Rf8 86. R2e3 Bg7 87. Re2 Re8 88. R2e3 Re6 89. Re2 Rd6 90.
R2e3 Re6 91. Re2 Rf7 92. R2e3 Bf6 1/2-1/2
[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "Athlon"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Crafty 19.03"]
[Black "Drexel, Michael"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/ppp2p2/3b3p/2p1p1p1/4P3/3P1PBP/PPP2P2/R4RK1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[TimeControl "600"]
1... f6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 2. Kg2 {[%eval -57,13] [%emt 0:00:18]} a5 {
(h5) [%emt 0:00:08]} 3. Rh1 {[%eval -51,14] [%emt 0:00:17]} a4 {
(Kf7) [%emt 0:00:04]} 4. h4 {[%eval -50,13] [%emt 0:00:16]} b5 {
(Kg7) [%emt 0:00:12]} 5. hxg5 {[%eval -5,13] [%emt 0:00:16]} hxg5 {
[%emt 0:00:03]} 6. Rad1 {[%eval -17,13] [%emt 0:00:19]} Kf7 {
(Kg7) [%emt 0:00:12]} 7. Rh7+ {[%eval -23,13] [%emt 0:00:15]} Ke6 {
[%emt 0:00:02]} 8. Rdh1 {[%eval -23,14] [%emt 0:00:13]} c4 {(a3) [%emt 0:00:11]
} 9. Kf1 {[%eval -43,11] [%emt 0:00:14]} a3 {[%emt 0:00:13]} 10. b3 {
[%eval -87,13] [%emt 0:00:01]} cxb3 {[%emt 0:00:06]} 11. cxb3 {
[%eval -118,14] [%emt 0:00:08]} Ra6 {[%emt 0:00:16]} 12. Ke2 {
[%eval -114,14] [%emt 0:00:00]} Rc6 {[%emt 0:00:06]} 13. Rd1 {
[%eval -121,14] [%emt 0:00:08]} Rc2+ {[%emt 0:00:05]} 14. Rd2 {
[%eval -184,16] [%emt 0:00:08]} Rb2 {[%emt 0:00:06]} 15. Rh1 {
[%eval -195,15] [%emt 0:00:13]} Bb4 {[%emt 0:00:06]} 16. Rxb2 {
[%eval -187,16] [%emt 0:00:07]} axb2 {[%emt 0:00:03]} 17. Rb1 {
[%eval -200,16] [%emt 0:00:09]} Bc3 {[%emt 0:00:08]} 18. Kd1 {
[%eval -242,16] [%emt 0:00:05]} Ra8 {[%emt 0:00:11]} 19. Kc2 {
[%eval -244,16] [%emt 0:00:01]} b4 {[%emt 0:00:51]} 20. a4 {
[%eval -257,18] [%emt 0:00:00]} bxa3 {[%emt 0:00:13]} 21. Kxc3 {
[%eval -257,16] [%emt 0:00:00]} a2 {(Td8) [%emt 0:00:08]} 22. Kxb2 {
[%eval -245,16] [%emt 0:00:12]} axb1=Q+ {[%emt 0:00:02]} 23. Kxb1 {
[%eval -265,16] [%emt 0:00:09]} Rd8 {(f5) [%emt 0:00:39]} 24. Kc2 {
[%eval -234,15] [%emt 0:00:11]} Kd7 {(f5) [%emt 0:00:02]} 25. Kc3 {
[%eval -247,15] [%emt 0:00:27]} c5 {[%emt 0:00:04]} 26. Kc4 {
[%eval -247,15] [%emt 0:00:06]} Kc6 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 27. Kc3 {
[%eval -357,15] [%emt 0:00:33]} Kb5 {(Ta8) [%emt 0:00:01]} 28. Kd2 {
[%eval -416,14] [%emt 0:00:10]} Kb4 {(Ta8) [%emt 0:00:20]} 29. Kc2 {
[%eval -526,16] [%emt 0:00:09]} Ra8 {[%emt 0:00:26]} 30. Kb2 {
[%eval -615,17] [%emt 0:00:01]} Ra3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 31. Bh2 {
[%eval -630,14] [%emt 0:00:07]} Rxb3+ {[%emt 0:00:02]} 32. Kc2 {
[%eval -632,16] [%emt 0:00:07]} Rc3+ {(c4) [%emt 0:00:05]} 33. Kd2 {
[%eval -615,16] [%emt 0:00:08]} Kb3 {(c4) [%emt 0:00:01]} 34. Bg3 {
[%eval -648,15] [%emt 0:00:08]} Rc2+ {[%emt 0:00:03]} 35. Ke3 {
[%eval -898,15] [%emt 0:00:21]} Kc3 {(Tc1) [%emt 0:00:02]} 36. Bh2 {
[%eval -965,15] [%emt 0:00:07]} Rd2 {(Ta2) [%emt 0:00:02]} 37. Bg3 {
[%eval -1276,15] [%emt 0:00:14]} Rxd3+ {[%emt 0:00:03]} 0-1
[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "Athlon"]
[Date "2003.04.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Drexel, Michael"]
[Black "Crafty 19.03"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/ppp2p2/3b3p/2p1p1p1/4P3/3P1PBP/PPP2P2/R4RK1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "183"]
[TimeControl "600"]
1... f5 {[%eval -40,14] [%emt 0:00:17]} 2. exf5 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rxf5 {
[%eval -63,15] [%emt 0:00:17]} 3. Kg2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Raf8 {
[%eval -64,15] [%emt 0:00:12]} 4. Rae1 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Kf7 {
[%eval -62,14] [%emt 0:00:13]} 5. Re3 {(b3) [%emt 0:00:05]} Ke6 {
[%eval -66,14] [%emt 0:00:16]} 6. Rfe1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a5 {
[%eval -65,14] [%emt 0:00:14]} 7. R1e2 {[%emt 0:00:12]} c6 {
[%eval -65,13] [%emt 0:00:09]} 8. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:08]} h5 {
[%eval -65,13] [%emt 0:00:07]} 9. a4 {(Lh2) [%emt 0:00:21]} b6 {
[%eval -62,13] [%emt 0:00:16]} 10. b3 {(Lh2) [%emt 0:00:02]} Kd5 {
[%eval -61,14] [%emt 0:00:14]} 11. Bh2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} R8f7 {
[%eval -54,13] [%emt 0:00:09]} 12. Bg3 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Rf8 {
[%eval -53,13] [%emt 0:00:09]} 13. Bh2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} R8f7 {
[%eval -53,13] [%emt 0:00:11]} 14. Bg3 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Bb8 {
[%eval -53,13] [%emt 0:00:10]} 15. Bh2 {(Kg1) [%emt 0:00:03]} Bc7 {
[%eval -50,14] [%emt 0:00:12]} 16. Bg3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} R7f6 {
[%eval -50,13] [%emt 0:00:11]} 17. Bh2 {(Kf1) [%emt 0:00:01]} h4 {
[%eval -53,12] [%emt 0:00:17]} 18. R2e3 {(c4+) [%emt 0:00:16]} Bd6 {
[%eval -35,15] [%emt 0:00:11]} 19. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rf7 {
[%eval -50,14] [%emt 0:00:10]} 20. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ke6 {
[%eval -40,13] [%emt 0:00:09]} 21. Re2 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Kd5 {
[%eval -53,13] [%emt 0:00:10]} 22. R2e3 {(c4+) [%emt 0:00:03]} R7f6 {
[%eval -43,14] [%emt 0:00:10]} 23. Re2 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:09]} Rf8 {
[%eval -28,15] [%emt 0:00:10]} 24. R4e3 {(T2e3) [%emt 0:00:03]} Bc7 {
[%eval -35,13] [%emt 0:00:11]} 25. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Ke6 {
[%eval -35,15] [%emt 0:00:07]} 26. R4e3 {(T2e3) [%emt 0:00:03]} Kd5 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:09]} 27. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bb8 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:07]} 28. R4e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:05]} R8f6 {
[%eval -33,13] [%emt 0:00:08]} 29. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rf8 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} 30. R4e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -53,14] [%emt 0:00:08]} 31. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ke6 {
[%eval -41,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} 32. R4e3 {(T2e3) [%emt 0:00:02]} Kd5 {
[%eval -17,14] [%emt 0:00:46]} 33. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ke6 {
[%eval -35,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 34. R4e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:02]} Kf6 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} 35. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Bc7 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:00]} 36. R4e3 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} 37. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bc7 {
[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:04]} 38. R4e3 {(Lg1) [%emt 0:00:02]} Ke6 {
[%eval -29,14] [%emt 0:00:06]} 39. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} R8f7 {
[%eval -27,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 40. R4e3 {(T2e3) [%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -35,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} 41. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} b5 {
[%eval -47,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 42. R2e3 {(T4e3) [%emt 0:00:05]} b4 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:05]} 43. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Kd5 {
[%eval -37,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 44. R4e3 {[%emt 0:00:03]} R7f6 {
[%eval -37,14] [%emt 0:00:01]} 45. Re4 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bc7 {
[%eval -37,14] [%emt 0:00:05]} 46. R4e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bd6 {
[%eval -37,15] [%emt 0:00:04]} 47. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:25]} Rf7 {
[%eval -37,16] [%emt 0:00:00]} 48. R4e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:02]} Bc7 {
[%eval -43,13] [%emt 0:00:05]} 49. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rf8 {
[%eval -37,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 50. R4e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bd6 {
[%eval -37,14] [%emt 0:00:04]} 51. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bb8 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 52. R4e3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 53. Re4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Re8 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 54. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:03]} Re6 {
[%eval -34,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 55. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Re8 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 56. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:02]} Re7 {
[%eval -28,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 57. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rf6 {
[%eval -28,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 58. R2e3 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:02]} Rff7 {
[%eval -29,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 59. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Re8 {
[%eval -23,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 60. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:02]} Ree7 {
[%eval -26,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 61. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:18]} Re6 {
[%eval -26,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 62. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bc7 {
[%eval -27,14] [%emt 0:00:04]} 63. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rff6 {
[%eval -27,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 64. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Rf7 {
[%eval -27,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 65. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rff6 {
[%eval -27,14] [%emt 0:00:02]} 66. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Rf5 {
[%eval -37,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 67. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bb8 {
[%eval -47,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 68. R2e3 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bc7 {
[%eval -37,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 69. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ref6 {
[%eval -47,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 70. R2e3 {(T4e3) [%emt 0:00:02]} Rf8 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 71. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -25,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 72. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bc7 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 73. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bd6 {
[%eval -37,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 74. R2e3 {(T4e3) [%emt 0:00:01]} Rc8 {
[%eval -25,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 75. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bc7 {
[%eval -29,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 76. R2e3 {(Kh1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -29,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 77. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bd8 {
[%eval -32,11] [%emt 0:00:02]} 78. R2e3 {(Kf1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bf6 {
[%eval -37,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 79. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rf8 {
[%eval -37,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 80. R2e3 {(Tc4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -37,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 81. Re2 {(Lg1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bf6 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 82. R2e3 {(Tc4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Rf7 {
[%eval -37,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 83. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -19,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 84. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bh8 {
[%eval -20,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 85. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rf8 {
[%eval -19,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 86. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -19,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 87. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -26,10] [%emt 0:00:02]} 88. R2e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re6 {
[%eval -14,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 89. Re2 {(Tg4) [%emt 0:00:01]} Rd6 {
[%eval 0,10] [%emt 0:00:02]} 90. R2e3 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Re6 {
[%eval 0,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 91. Re2 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Rf7 {
[%eval 0,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 92. R2e3 {(Te1) [%emt 0:00:01]} Bf6 {
[%eval 0,14] [%emt 0:00:02]} 1/2-1/2
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