Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 20:03:52 04/04/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 04, 2003 at 21:12:41, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>On April 02, 2003 at 22:33:09, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>On April 02, 2003 at 17:56:31, Amir Ban wrote:
>>
>>>I read it, but I don't understand why you are not going. Let's see, will you:
>>>
>>>- Be aiding evil acts ?
>>>- Do something unpatriotic ?
>>>- Identify with views you don't support ?
>>>- Appear to endorse the jerk ?
>>>
>>>None of this seems to apply. It's not like going to Berlin 1936 or even Moscow
>>>1980.
>>>
>>>The only issue that I understand is worrying that you'll be met with hostility.
>>>I think it's reasonable to ask the ICGA to ensure this doesn't happen. After all
>>>the President is British (and Jewish).
>>>
>>>Your agenda should be:
>>>
>>>1. Win the war
>>>2. Try to win Graz
>>
>>This is fair, but I don't feel that it is appropriate for me to go. I don't
>>want to accept hospitality from someone who would send something like that in
>>email.
>>
>>It is hard to bother an American with symbols. The swastika doesn't mean that
>>much to us, for instance, we don't have a visceral reaction to it. A burning
>>American flag means something to some people, but it means very little to a lot
>>of people, for instance me.
>>
>>Soldiers are something different. We had Vietnam, and everyone here knows how
>>much the returning soldiers were hurt by people who spit at them and so on. So
>>now, no matter what people believe about any particular war, everyone here has
>>figured out that the troops are off limits. If you criticize, you go top down,
>>not the other way.
>>
>>I can't think of anything you could send an American that would offend them
>>more. Really. If any American has an idea, please let me know.
>>
>>It goes beyond this though. There is genuine animosity underlying this. I
>>don't want to accept the hospitality of someone who hates Americans and feels
>>compelled to express it this way. How do you accept hospitality from someone
>>who makes it clear to you that he hates you? This is not just a vaguely
>>unpleasant post, or something like that. This was an email so off the wall that
>>I thought it might be a forged-header "Here is a special program, you are the
>>first to see it, I hope you are liking it very much" virus thing.
>>
>>Perhaps the sender meant it as an anti-war email. But I took it as a hate post,
>>and I think most Americans would also take it this way.
>>
>>Beyond all of this is something very concrete that affects someone other than
>>myself. I have received an email that essentially expresses the hope that a
>>specific basically innocent person will undergo torture and death, which seems
>>rather likely at this point. How can I receive this and have anything to do
>>with the person who sent it?
>>
>>Finally, let's talk about the person who sent the email. He sent more of these,
>>with little stir. Maybe an angry email back. If I had ignored this, if I had
>>argued with him about the war, if I had called him an asshole, or in some other
>>way had reacted as *he* planned, he would feel like he had done the right thing.
>> He would feel good about having done this. If I do this instead, perhaps at
>>some point he will regret that he sent this material. He may feel bad about
>>having done this. That's a step in the right direction.
>>
>>Let him learn that there are consequences when you do this kind of thing.
>>
>>bruce
>
>
>While the first email sent to you alone is bad enough, sending you a second,
>even more objectionable email after you expressed your displeasure with
>receiving the first shows very poor judgement on the part of the sender.
>
>You could consider doing the following things:
without saying i agree or disagree. let's look objective from lawyer viewpoints:
a) typical dumb american reaction let me go into details
>1. Check if in your jurisdiction, there is something that limits freedom of
>expression ("speech" in the USA) where the primary purpose of such expression is
>to espouse hatred.
lawyer costs in USA, but in the end they will tell you they do not know because
to sue such persons you need to sue someone in his own hometown.
>2. If so, file a formal complaint with your local police.
austrian police will laugh at you for something like that and judge you as the
typical american, confirming their ideas about them.
>3. Check if in the sender's jurisdiction, there is something similar.
yeah you can start a courtcase in the town where the person lives.
his village is like 200 people so you probably need to go to the nearest
'canton'.
Then the next question is what court you try to sue someone.
That means in the meantime you already pay triple lawyer costs, because
in europe (and i assume in austria it isn't much diff from netherlands here):
a) under european law in general courtcases without paying lawyers is
forbidden
b) you need a laywer to start a courtcase
Then after $5000 lawyer costs you will find out that actually in europe winning
a courtcase is very difficult. Basically you can win a courtcase if the sued
person doesn't defend himself. Amazingly enough many do not do that indeed. They
do not show up.
But this person would show up with a lawyer.
>4. If so, file a formal complaint with his local police.
You repeat yourself here. That's already adresses above. They will laugh in
austria for that.
>5. File a formal complaint with the sender's employer. (Even in a university,
>there are practical limits to an academic's freedom of expression.)
Chessbase will say they have nothing to do with this and they better do so as
they got some economical interests:
Imagine Brutus wins its own tournament and then plays kasparov. Then chessbase,
good in marketing, will sell perhaps 50000 cards of brutus.
50k cards x 500 euro = 25 million euro = about 25 million dollar
Of course that is not the profit. Profit is a small part of it.
Perhaps only 45% of it.
The reason why it is so important to let brutus win the world champs is because
possible profit from it winning is much more than Fritz in this case as each
unit sells for more than average.
Not the world title will be so much taking care of the sales, but the resulting
match against kasparov would.
>6. I hope you are able to at least receive a formal apology with a commitment
>that such an act will not be performed by the sender again. Of course, you
>could try to press for considerably more than that, depending on how badly
>you've been offended.
I bet in germany they are cheering that one program which possibly could win
from Brutus is out of the competition now.
>Dave
Now you're back to reality i hope again.
Best regards,
Vincent
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