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Subject: Re: some questions about chess programs and money

Author: José Carlos

Date: 00:21:54 04/08/03

Go up one level in this thread


On April 08, 2003 at 00:56:18, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On April 08, 2003 at 00:12:37, Dann Corbit wrote:
>
>>On April 07, 2003 at 16:10:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>On April 07, 2003 at 11:44:34, Steve Maughan wrote:
>>>>Uri,
>>>>
>>>>>Maybe you mean 50$ per copy but I asked about the total profit.
>>>>
>>>>The problem is that few people have access to the sales figures of the top
>>>>programs so it's difficult to answer a question about revenue.  And again the
>>>>sales level will change quite dramatically depending upon the level of
>>>>advertising / promotion.  It's much easier to answer a question like, "would you
>>>>buy a program for $10 that is the same strength as Crafty?"
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>
>>>I don't even *want* to answer it here though a lot is known in the small world.
>>>Basically if Uri would have been less of an idiot, he could have figured it out
>>>already. I posted some numbers half a year ago or so and that will be forever
>>>best indication he ever will get of course.
>>>
>>>Now he asks the same question and i'm sure that from all persons i would be the
>>>only one to *ever* post anything realistic here, though some here who won't
>>>answer to this thread can guess and will get to the same numbers.
>>>
>>>Chris Carson is the last of course to believe here. Complete idiot. If you lower
>>>price you do not sell more. usually you sell less as "that program gotta suck
>>>then".
>>
>>If everything else is equal, then lowering the price should sell more.
>
>Only an american can come up with such a stupid argument, though in america it
>is "winner takes it all anyway". People kick on winners. If you go for 50 dollar
>and are a winner, then they buy you even if the number 2 which is 1 rating point
>less, is $20. If it's $10 it doesn't get taken serious. Or do you take the old
>chessmasters dumped at warehouses for $10 serious?
>
>What does latest chessmaster sell for? Right like 40 dollar. Is that not a bit
>much for what it offers compared to for example ChessAcademy 7 which is shortly
>in the market place?
>
>Outdated engine in cm9k. not even parallel and so on. does it load uci engines?
>i don't know. you tell me. how about all the stupid windows? No wonder they
>can't sell it in europe. But if they sell it here. then for 40 euro of course.
>not for 20. then it gotta suck, understand?
>
>If not. then you hopeless case. Well you're not born as a salesman i guess.
>That's more into my family. bob probably too. he'll sell deep blue as well
>tested modern 0.09 micron hardware using the latest algorithms even to you :)
>
>What does deepfritz sell for? 100 euro or so!
>
>for the bugfix of it to work better on P4 and K7 ddr ram machines i guess, you
>pay another 68 euro only if you had paid that 100 euro or so already.
>
>those 168 euro just for a bit of lineair speedup which isn't too impressive
>either at 4 threads of a dual Xeon.
>
>Shredder outsearched it to the left and right at paderborn. At any random
>position in fact.
>
>that where fritz got like 2.2 mln nodes a second or so against me. (a lot less
>than the production deepfritz gets anyway at dual K7s around, also search depth
>seems less in tournaments or i simply give it too much time a position here).
>
>I get impression tournament version of fritz is different from what lies in the
>market place, based upon search depths seen. But i could be wrong. I only wrote
>that last sentence because of a courtcase i would get on my roof btw.
>
>Its search depth sucks at tournaments nowadays.
>
>So basically it is what the fool wants to pay for. You aren't going to sell more
>of the current chessmaster version when asking $35 instead of $39.95
>
>Of course you ask $39.95.
>
>Come to europe and you'll understand.
>
>Sjeng is tactical way stronger than Fritz, latest 1.4 version i have here is
>destroying everything tactical (except ferret i guess, but only bruce can answer
>that). Fritz is tactical a joke compared to it and i thought fritz' speed was
>just to solve tactics quickly. To quote frans: "learn through speed".
>
>You get a cheapo 1.0 version which is dual right from the start.
>
>Buy shredder7. Directly get for free dual version.
>
>For fritz you pay 168 euro extra to get it dual.
>
>How about that?
>
>"deep fritz rules" i hear some say. Well deepfritz7 is like half a year older
>than fritz8. If some say df7 is better i bet it means that every new version of
>fritz hardly anything gets modified.
>
>All i could figure out is that df7 is a bit better in endgames than the previous
>versions. further it dislikes bishop pairs more. Even when they are good (as the
>tournament lines it plays it doesn't have them. so get it a position where
>bishop pair is good and it will lose amazingly).
>
>but why do so many people buy df7 then and not shredder7?
>
>do not ask me!
>
>Ask dan corbit or cris carson. they know it. they buy df7 and also the upgrade
>because it is CHEAPER than shredder7, isn't it?
>
>Welcome in europe.
>
>Only in India it is worse i heard because of all kind of protections...
>...anyway that's on products like computers... ...so europe is great in fact...
>
>Uri lives in Israel. Not America.
>
>You can see Israel of course as Asia. You can see it however more as europe than
>USA is.
>
>>The free programs never 'sell' an infinite amount, even though some are quite
>>strong and the price is zero.
>>The problem is that everything else is never equal.
>>
>>The most important factors are:
>>1.  Advertizing.  Why did you buy a product?  Most people are just going to
>>remember what they saw on TV, read in a magazine, or possibly read on the box.
>>
>>2.  Shelf space.  If it isn't in the stores, nobody is going to buy it.
>>
>>3.  Ease of use.  If the users can't figure out how to use it, it will get bad
>>word-of-mouth and/or thrown away when attempted.  Must have easy installation.
>>Must have clear, concise manual with an index.  Must have online support.
>>
>>4.  Features.  Can it stop a herd of stampeding Yak?  The other product has that
>>feature with a check-mark!
>>
>>Everything else pales in comparison.
>>
>>>Perhaps Uri should first try to win the ICGA world champs (and not at 500 moves
>>>a minute as i would love to see movei play rebel there as rebel only starts
>>>counting time after ply 2 or so, so it will always think longer than movei
>>>there) and if he is there in that small world. Then he'll be able to chat enough
>>>during the rounds and he'll know more than he ever will find out here at the
>>>CCC.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Vincent

  Some questions:

  - If you know so much about selling, why aren't you rich selling Diep?
  - If americans are so stupid about economy, why are they the #1 in that field?
  - Are you gonna buy Averno? I sell it for $1000, so it must be damn strong.
  - Why do outdated The King kick your state-of-the-art program in the arse?
  - Why does joke-search-pathetic-eval-Fritz kick
super-parallel-search-genius-eval Diep in the arse?

  Just curious,

  José C.



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