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Subject: Re: some questions about chess programs and money

Author: José Carlos

Date: 23:53:35 04/08/03

Go up one level in this thread


On April 08, 2003 at 19:37:21, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On April 08, 2003 at 03:21:54, José Carlos wrote:
>
>>On April 08, 2003 at 00:56:18, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On April 08, 2003 at 00:12:37, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 07, 2003 at 16:10:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>On April 07, 2003 at 11:44:34, Steve Maughan wrote:
>>>>>>Uri,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe you mean 50$ per copy but I asked about the total profit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The problem is that few people have access to the sales figures of the top
>>>>>>programs so it's difficult to answer a question about revenue.  And again the
>>>>>>sales level will change quite dramatically depending upon the level of
>>>>>>advertising / promotion.  It's much easier to answer a question like, "would you
>>>>>>buy a program for $10 that is the same strength as Crafty?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't even *want* to answer it here though a lot is known in the small world.
>>>>>Basically if Uri would have been less of an idiot, he could have figured it out
>>>>>already. I posted some numbers half a year ago or so and that will be forever
>>>>>best indication he ever will get of course.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now he asks the same question and i'm sure that from all persons i would be the
>>>>>only one to *ever* post anything realistic here, though some here who won't
>>>>>answer to this thread can guess and will get to the same numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Chris Carson is the last of course to believe here. Complete idiot. If you lower
>>>>>price you do not sell more. usually you sell less as "that program gotta suck
>>>>>then".
>>>>
>>>>If everything else is equal, then lowering the price should sell more.
>>>
>>>Only an american can come up with such a stupid argument, though in america it
>>>is "winner takes it all anyway". People kick on winners. If you go for 50 dollar
>>>and are a winner, then they buy you even if the number 2 which is 1 rating point
>>>less, is $20. If it's $10 it doesn't get taken serious. Or do you take the old
>>>chessmasters dumped at warehouses for $10 serious?
>>>
>>>What does latest chessmaster sell for? Right like 40 dollar. Is that not a bit
>>>much for what it offers compared to for example ChessAcademy 7 which is shortly
>>>in the market place?
>>>
>>>Outdated engine in cm9k. not even parallel and so on. does it load uci engines?
>>>i don't know. you tell me. how about all the stupid windows? No wonder they
>>>can't sell it in europe. But if they sell it here. then for 40 euro of course.
>>>not for 20. then it gotta suck, understand?
>>>
>>>If not. then you hopeless case. Well you're not born as a salesman i guess.
>>>That's more into my family. bob probably too. he'll sell deep blue as well
>>>tested modern 0.09 micron hardware using the latest algorithms even to you :)
>>>
>>>What does deepfritz sell for? 100 euro or so!
>>>
>>>for the bugfix of it to work better on P4 and K7 ddr ram machines i guess, you
>>>pay another 68 euro only if you had paid that 100 euro or so already.
>>>
>>>those 168 euro just for a bit of lineair speedup which isn't too impressive
>>>either at 4 threads of a dual Xeon.
>>>
>>>Shredder outsearched it to the left and right at paderborn. At any random
>>>position in fact.
>>>
>>>that where fritz got like 2.2 mln nodes a second or so against me. (a lot less
>>>than the production deepfritz gets anyway at dual K7s around, also search depth
>>>seems less in tournaments or i simply give it too much time a position here).
>>>
>>>I get impression tournament version of fritz is different from what lies in the
>>>market place, based upon search depths seen. But i could be wrong. I only wrote
>>>that last sentence because of a courtcase i would get on my roof btw.
>>>
>>>Its search depth sucks at tournaments nowadays.
>>>
>>>So basically it is what the fool wants to pay for. You aren't going to sell more
>>>of the current chessmaster version when asking $35 instead of $39.95
>>>
>>>Of course you ask $39.95.
>>>
>>>Come to europe and you'll understand.
>>>
>>>Sjeng is tactical way stronger than Fritz, latest 1.4 version i have here is
>>>destroying everything tactical (except ferret i guess, but only bruce can answer
>>>that). Fritz is tactical a joke compared to it and i thought fritz' speed was
>>>just to solve tactics quickly. To quote frans: "learn through speed".
>>>
>>>You get a cheapo 1.0 version which is dual right from the start.
>>>
>>>Buy shredder7. Directly get for free dual version.
>>>
>>>For fritz you pay 168 euro extra to get it dual.
>>>
>>>How about that?
>>>
>>>"deep fritz rules" i hear some say. Well deepfritz7 is like half a year older
>>>than fritz8. If some say df7 is better i bet it means that every new version of
>>>fritz hardly anything gets modified.
>>>
>>>All i could figure out is that df7 is a bit better in endgames than the previous
>>>versions. further it dislikes bishop pairs more. Even when they are good (as the
>>>tournament lines it plays it doesn't have them. so get it a position where
>>>bishop pair is good and it will lose amazingly).
>>>
>>>but why do so many people buy df7 then and not shredder7?
>>>
>>>do not ask me!
>>>
>>>Ask dan corbit or cris carson. they know it. they buy df7 and also the upgrade
>>>because it is CHEAPER than shredder7, isn't it?
>>>
>>>Welcome in europe.
>>>
>>>Only in India it is worse i heard because of all kind of protections...
>>>...anyway that's on products like computers... ...so europe is great in fact...
>>>
>>>Uri lives in Israel. Not America.
>>>
>>>You can see Israel of course as Asia. You can see it however more as europe than
>>>USA is.
>>>
>>>>The free programs never 'sell' an infinite amount, even though some are quite
>>>>strong and the price is zero.
>>>>The problem is that everything else is never equal.
>>>>
>>>>The most important factors are:
>>>>1.  Advertizing.  Why did you buy a product?  Most people are just going to
>>>>remember what they saw on TV, read in a magazine, or possibly read on the box.
>>>>
>>>>2.  Shelf space.  If it isn't in the stores, nobody is going to buy it.
>>>>
>>>>3.  Ease of use.  If the users can't figure out how to use it, it will get bad
>>>>word-of-mouth and/or thrown away when attempted.  Must have easy installation.
>>>>Must have clear, concise manual with an index.  Must have online support.
>>>>
>>>>4.  Features.  Can it stop a herd of stampeding Yak?  The other product has that
>>>>feature with a check-mark!
>>>>
>>>>Everything else pales in comparison.
>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps Uri should first try to win the ICGA world champs (and not at 500 moves
>>>>>a minute as i would love to see movei play rebel there as rebel only starts
>>>>>counting time after ply 2 or so, so it will always think longer than movei
>>>>>there) and if he is there in that small world. Then he'll be able to chat enough
>>>>>during the rounds and he'll know more than he ever will find out here at the
>>>>>CCC.
>>>>>
>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>Vincent
>>
>>  Some questions:
>>
>>  - If you know so much about selling, why aren't you rich selling Diep?
>
>What i earn with diep is none of your business though i bet you would like to
>know, and please tell me which tournament Fritz managed to kick me. Last 3
>tournaments or so i nearly managed to kick it. So i'm closing in!
>
>You definitely are a troll. There is a big difference between selling something
>for $40-50 versus $5-$10.
>
>You know it too, but you just like to troll of course as you are too dumb to
>realize anything.

  Thanks for your intelligent answer to my questions. Your arguments and
reasoning are impossible to refute for me.

  José C.


>Note that shareware DIEP was at 10 million cdroms.
>
>>  - If americans are so stupid about economy, why are they the #1 in that field?
>>  - Are you gonna buy Averno? I sell it for $1000, so it must be damn strong.
>>  - Why do outdated The King kick your state-of-the-art program in the arse?
>>  - Why does joke-search-pathetic-eval-Fritz kick
>>super-parallel-search-genius-eval Diep in the arse?
>>
>>  Just curious,
>>
>>  José C.



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