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Subject: Re: A hideous move

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 21:48:55 04/12/03

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On April 12, 2003 at 04:22:57, Uri Blass wrote:

>On April 12, 2003 at 01:44:26, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On April 11, 2003 at 12:24:43, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On April 11, 2003 at 12:06:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>Here is a position from a game Crafty played on ICC today.
>>>>
>>>>[d]8/8/1p4k1/3K1p1p/1R3P1P/6P1/3r4/8 w - -
>>>>
>>>>This was showing as a draw until white uncorked the Rd4 interposition to block
>>>>the check.  At this point, black's Rxd4 starts to climb as it should.  The score
>>>>goes to
>>>>-10 quickly.
>>>>
>>>>This seems to be an example of an engine that misses the power of the "distant
>>>>passed
>>>>pawn".  I won't name names to protect the guilty, but it shows that certain
>>>>pieces of
>>>>knowledge are key to prevent a draw from becoming a loss.
>>>
>>>There is some stage when the passed pawn is trapped and if the program
>>>can see it and stop there to evaluate then it may evaluate it wrong.
>>>
>>>I suspect that the problem is in evaluating a pawn endgame
>>>with no passed pawns.
>>>
>>>If you search deep but not deep enough you can see that b6 is gone
>>>so to solve it by evaluation you need evaluation
>>>of pawns relative to the kings to understand that black is losing inspite of the
>>>fact that black is a pawn up.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>That has to be part of the evaluation.  IE you have to know that you can
>>give the pawn up if your king is closer to the remaining pawns than the
>>opposing king is...
>>
>>I do that obviously...
>
>This has nothing to do with the pawn.

Yes it does.  _first_ you need to know that the distant passer is a winning
advantage.  _then_ you have to understand that if your king is closer to the
remaining pawns then even if the passer disappears you _still_ are winning.

Without _both_ you can't play these right because trying to hold on to the
distant passer draws.

>
>You have to evaluate correctly the following position that can happen
>if you do not search deep enough
>
>[D]8/8/1K6/5p1p/4kP1P/6P1/8/8 w - - 0 6
>
>I hope that movei will be able to see it after I add some knolwedge but the
>knowledge that is needed is not about passed pawns because there are no passed
>pawns in that position.
>
>Uri
>Uri


That's exactly what I said...

But at shallow depths you had better know about the distant passer of you
will not try to reach the position you gave.  Then you never get a chance
to get your king closer and win.



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