Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 02:38:01 04/27/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 26, 2003 at 21:59:56, Ferdinand S. Mosca wrote:
>
>On April 26, 2003 at 19:15:04, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>Hello Mike,
>
>>Today I started an interesting experiment.
>>A match Chessmaster 9000 against Shredder 7.04 in Chessbase GUI with
>>over-optimistically settings for The King 3.23.
>
>That's a good test.
>
>>With this settings The King engine evaluates his positions almost always as
>>better for himself, except it is completely lost.
>
>What is the average/largest score of Shredder (winning) that the king is
>actually losing? and what is the score of the king?
I havent looked at most of the games but here is an example (maybe not the
best):
[Event "ATHLON, Blitz:5'"]
[Site "ATHLON"]
[Date "2003.04.26"]
[Round "3"]
[White "MyKing 3.23"]
[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C92"]
[Annotator "-0.01;-0.08"]
[PlyCount "135"]
[TimeControl "300"]
{W=7.5 ply; 171kN/s
B=10.5 ply; 367kN/s; 4.863 TBAs
} 1. e4 {0} e5 {0} 2. Nf3
{0} Nc6 {0} 3. Bb5 {0} a6 {0} 4. Ba4 {0} Nf6 {0} 5. O-O {0} Be7 {0} 6. Re1 {0}
b5 {0} 7. Bb3 {0} O-O {0} 8. c3 {0} d6 {0} 9. h3 {0} Bb7 {0} 10. d4 {0} Re8 {0}
11. Ng5 {0} Rf8 {0} 12. Nf3 {0} Re8 {0} 13. a4 {0} h6 {0} 14. Nbd2 {0} Bf8 {0}
15. Bc2 {0} exd4 {0} 16. cxd4 {0} Nb4 {0} 17. Bb1 {0} c5 {0} 18. d5 {0} Nd7 {0}
19. Ra3 {0} f5 {0} 20. exf5 {0} Nf6 {Beide letzter Buchzug 0} 21. Nh4 {
-0.01/8 5} Nbxd5 {-0.08/11 12} (21... Bxd5) 22. Ng6 {-0.01/9 6} Rxe1+ {
(Dd7) -0.05/10 13} 23. Qxe1 {0.11/8 1} Nc7 {(Dd7) -0.05/11 14} 24. Nf3 {
(Te3) 0.21/8 11} Qd7 {-0.15/10 14} 25. axb5 {(Te3) 0.23/8 6} Re8 {-0.14/10 6}
26. Qd1 {0.07/8 7} axb5 {(Sxb5) -0.09/11 7} 27. Nfh4 {(Lf4) 0.22/8 7} d5 {
(Scd5) -0.13/10 6} 28. Nxf8 {0.81/9 5} Kxf8 {(Txf8) -0.01/11 5} 29. b4 {
(Tg3) 0.91/8 4} c4 {0.07/11 7} 30. Ra7 {0.77/8 4} Na6 {-0.07/12 9} 31. Bb2 {
0.44/9 11} Kf7 {(Kg8) 0.16/11 14} 32. Nf3 {(Lc3) 1.03/8 3} Nxb4 {-0.51/9 1} 33.
Bxf6 {0.79/9 3} gxf6 {-0.44/10 2} 34. Qd2 {0.73/9 4} Nc6 {-0.94/11 7} 35. Qxh6
{0.51/9 3} Rg8 {-1.18/12 9} 36. Ra3 {(Dh7+) 0.60/8 3} d4 {-1.63/11 8} 37. Be4 {
0.31/8 5} b4 {(d3) -1.38/10 4} 38. Ra1 {0.00/8 8} Rg7 {(b3) -0.27/10 11} 39.
Rc1 {(Te1) 0.20/8 7} c3 {-0.72/11 9} 40. Re1 {0.23/8 4} Ne7 {-0.30/11 5} 41.
Nxd4 {0.30/8 5} Qxd4 {0.07/11 5} 42. Bxb7 {0.69/8 3} Qc5 {(Dd7) 0.07/10 4} 43.
Qh5+ {0.80/9 16} Kf8 {0.30/11 6} 44. Ra1 {0.80/8 4} Rg8 {0.62/11 7} 45. Qh7 {
(Dh6+) 0.80/7 3} Ke8 {1.00/11 7} 46. Re1 {0.53/7 4} Kf8 {0.58/10 4} 47. Qh6+ {
(Lc6) 1.90/8 4} Ke8 {2.24/11 19} 48. Qxf6 {1.77/8 3} c2 {2.20/11 3} 49. Qb2 {
(De6) 2.00/8 6} Rg5 {(Tf8) 2.04/10 18} 50. Be4 {(Tc1) 2.53/8 3} b3 {2.28/10 7}
51. f6 {1.73/7 3} Re5 {2.28/10 2} 52. fxe7 {1.74/7 2} Kxe7 {2.53/10 2} 53. Kh1
{2.07/7 3} Kf8 {(Kd6) 3.03/8 3} 54. Rc1 {(f3) 2.53/8 4} Rxe4 {2.56/9 3} 55.
Qf6+ {3.06/8 2} Kg8 {2.82/10 3} 56. Qg6+ {3.14/8 1} Kh8 {2.82/11 2} 57. Qxe4 {
3.54/8 2} Qxf2 {3.28/7 1} 58. Ra1 {(Te1) 3.45/7 2} Qf8 {(Df7) 6.96/9 5} 59.
Qh4+ {(De5+) 99.77/8 3} Kg8 {18.80/10 4} 60. Qg5+ {99.79/7 2} Kh8 {
(Kf7) #22/10 1} 61. Ra7 {99.85/5 0} c1=Q+ {#7/10 1} 62. Qxc1 {99.87/4 0} Qg7 {
#6/10 1} 63. Qc8+ {99.89/3 0} Kh7 {#5/9 1} 64. Qf5+ {99.91/2 0} Kh6 {
(Kh8) #4/9 1} 65. Ra6+ {99.93/2 0} Qf6 {#3/9 1} 66. Rxf6+ {(Dxf6+) 99.95/2 0}
Kg7 {#2/7 0} 67. Qg6+ {(Dg5+) 99.97/2 0} Kh8 {#1/7 0} 68. Rf8# {99.99/1 0} 1-0
[D] 6r1/1b1q1k2/2n2p1Q/5P2/1pppB3/5N1P/5PP1/R5K1 b - - 0 38
Black has three passed pawns but his King is somewhat vulnerable.
Look at the evaluations of Shredder and Chessmaster.
Michael
Analysis by Shredder 7.04:
38...Rg5 39.Nxg5+ fxg5
+- (1.90) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00
38...Rg5 39.Nxg5+ fxg5 40.Qxg5
± (1.36) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
38...c3
= (-0.17) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
38...c3
-+ (-2.34) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
38...c3
-+ (-2.34) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Bxc6 Bxc6
µ (-1.02) Depth: 2/2 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Qg6+ Rxg6 40.fxg6+ Ke7 41.Bxc6
µ (-1.08) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Qh5+ Kf8 40.Qh6+ Qg7 41.Qxg7+ Rxg7 42.Bxc6 Bxc6 43.Nxd4
µ (-1.03) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Rd1 Rg7 40.Nh4
µ (-1.00) Depth: 4/18 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Qh7+ Rg7 40.Qh5+ Ke7 41.Rd1 Qe8
µ (-1.06) Depth: 5/19 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Re1 d3 40.Qh7+ Rg7 41.Bd5+ Qxd5 42.Qh5+ Rg6 43.fxg6+ Kf8 44.Qxd5
µ (-0.81) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00
38...c3 39.Re1 Nd8 40.Bxb7 Nxb7 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Qh6+ Qg7
³ (-0.55) Depth: 6/24 00:00:00
38...Qd6 39.Bxc6 Bxc6 40.Ne5+ Qxe5 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Qe8+ Qxe8
³ (-0.56) Depth: 6/24 00:00:00
38...Qd6 39.Qh5+ Kf8 40.Qh6+ Rg7 41.Qh8+ Kf7 42.Ne5+ fxe5 43.Qf8+ Qxf8
µ (-0.90) Depth: 6/24 00:00:00
38...d3 39.Qh7+ Rg7 40.Bd5+ Qxd5 41.Qg6+ Rxg6 42.fxg6+ Kxg6 43.Nh4+ Kg5 44.Nf3+
Qxf3
µ (-0.91) Depth: 6/24 00:00:00
38...d3 39.Re1 Rg7 40.Qh5+ Ke7 41.Bxc6+ Kf8 42.Bxd7
µ (-0.91) Depth: 6/24 00:00:00
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Qh7+ Kf8 42.Qf7+ Kxf7 43.Rxe7+ Qxe7
µ (-1.16) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 192kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Qh6+ Ke8 42.Bxb7 Qxb7 43.Qxf6
µ (-1.35) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 226kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Qh5+ Kg7 41.Bxb7 Qxb7 42.Rxe7+ Qxe7 43.Qh7+ Kxh7 44.Ng5+
fxg5
-+ (-1.60) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 520kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Qh5+ Kg7 42.Qg4+ Kf8 43.Qh4 Qe4 44.Rxe4
-+ (-1.60) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 552kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Re6 Rxg2+ 43.Kxg2 d2 44.Rxf6+ Kg8
-+ (-1.44) Depth: 9/29 00:00:02 1005kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Re6 Rxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qa6 44.Rxa6
µ (-1.19) Depth: 10/25 00:00:03 1252kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Re6 Rxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Nxf5 44.Qxf5
Qxf3+ 45.Kxf3
³ (-0.69) Depth: 10/26 00:00:03 1321kN
38...d3 39.Re1 Na5 40.Bxb7 Nxb7 41.Re6 Rg7 42.Qh5+ Kf8 43.Qh8+ Kf7 44.Qh4 Rxg2+
45.Kxg2 Qc6 46.Rxc6
= (0.08) Depth: 10/34 00:00:10 4113kN
38...Na5 39.Bxb7 Nxb7 40.Qh7+ Rg7 41.Qh5+ Kg8 42.Nxd4 Qxd4 43.Qe8+ Kh7 44.Qh8+
= (0.07) Depth: 10/34 00:00:16 6454kN
38...Na5 39.Bxb7 Nxb7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Ra8+ Nd8 42.Qh6+ Ke8 43.Qxf6 Rxg2+ 44.Kxg2
c3 45.Qxd4 Qd5 46.Qxd5
= (0.07) Depth: 10/34 00:00:17 6660kN
38...Nd8 39.Qh5+ Kf8 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Nxd4
= (0.06) Depth: 10/34 00:00:19 7288kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qc6 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Qh8 Rxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qe8 44.Rxe8
= (0.06) Depth: 10/34 00:00:19 7493kN
38...Rg7 39.Qh5+ Ke7 40.Qh8 Kd6 41.Ra8
= (0.05) Depth: 10/34 00:00:21 8055kN
38...Rg7 39.Rc1 Na5 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Re1 Qc6
= (0.05) Depth: 10/34 00:00:23 8931kN
38...Rg7 39.Rc1 c3 40.Re1 Ne7 41.Nxd4 Qxd4 42.Bd5+
= (-0.20) Depth: 11/31 00:00:29 11151kN
38...Rg7 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Nxd4 Qxd4 41.Bxb7 Kg8 42.Be4 Rg5
³ (-0.48) Depth: 11/31 00:00:32 12159kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qxf3 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Re7+ Kxe7 43.Qxg7+ Nf7 44.gxf3
³ (-0.49) Depth: 11/33 00:00:37 14187kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qxf3 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Re7+ Kxe7 43.Qxg7+ Nf7 44.gxf3
³ (-0.64) Depth: 11/35 00:00:39 15381kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qxf3 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Re7+ Kxe7 43.Qxg7+ Nf7 44.gxf3
b3 45.Kf1
³ (-0.39) Depth: 12/33 00:00:43 16534kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qxf3 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Re7+ Kxe7 43.Qxg7+ Nf7 44.gxf3
b3 45.Qg4 Ng5 46.f4
= (0.03) Depth: 12/33 00:00:49 18940kN
38...Rg7 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Nxd4 Qxd4 41.Bxb7 Kg8 42.Be4 Rh7 43.Bd5+
= (0.02) Depth: 12/38 00:00:56 21393kN
38...Rg7 39.Re1 Ne5 40.Nxe5+ fxe5 41.f6 Rxg2+ 42.Bxg2 Bxg2 43.Qh7+ Kxf6 44.Qxd7
Bxh3 45.Qxh3
= (-0.22) Depth: 12/38 00:01:00 23129kN
38...Rg7 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Nxd4 Kg8 42.Bxb7 Rxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qxb7+ 44.f3
Qe4 45.Rxe4
= (0.02) Depth: 13/39 00:01:21 31074kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Qxf3 41.Qh7+ Rg7 42.Re7+ Kxe7 43.Qxg7+ Nf7 44.gxf3
b3 45.Qg4 Ng5
= (0.01) Depth: 13/39 00:01:40 38154kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Nh4 Qc7 41.Qh5+ Kf8 42.Qh6+ Rg7 43.Qxf6+ Kg8 44.Qxd4
Qf4 45.Qxf4
= (0.01) Depth: 13/39 00:01:51 41822kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Qxb7 40.Re1 Rxg2+ 41.Kxg2 b3 42.Qh5+ Kg8 43.Qg6+ Kh8 44.Qxf6+
Kg8 45.Qxd8+ Kh7
² (0.26) Depth: 14/43 00:02:59 66362kN
38...Nd8 39.Bxb7 Nxb7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Qh4 Qxf5 42.Qxd4 Qe6 43.Nd2 Qc6 44.Ra8+ Kf7
45.Rxg8
² (0.46) Depth: 14/43 00:03:51 86362kN
38...Rg7 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Qh5+ Kg8 41.Bxb7 Qxb7 42.Qe8+ Kh7 43.Ng5+ fxg5 44.Qh5+
Kg8 45.f3
² (0.45) Depth: 14/43 00:04:27 100114kN
Analysis by King 3.23:
38...b3 39.Re1 Qd6
² (0.53) Depth: 3 00:00:00
38...b3 39.Re1 Qd6 40.Bb1
² (0.42) Depth: 4 00:00:00
38...b3 39.Ra4 Ne5 40.Nxe5+ fxe5 41.Ra7
² (0.41) Depth: 5 00:00:00
38...b3 39.Re1 Ne5 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Nxe5+ fxe5 42.Qe6+ Kf8 43.Qf6+ Qf7 44.Qxe5
= (0.24) Depth: 6 00:00:00 175kN
38...b3 39.Re1 Ne5 40.Bxb7 Qxb7 41.Nxe5+ fxe5 42.Qe6+ Kg7 43.Rxe5 Qf7
= (0.05) Depth: 7 00:00:02 600kN
38...b3 39.Re1 Ne7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Bxb7 Qxb7 42.Re6 Kg7 43.Nxd4 Rd8
² (0.57) Depth: 8 00:00:04 1158kN
38...Na5 39.Bxb7 Nxb7 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Ra8+ Nd8 42.Qh6+ Kf7 43.Ra5 b3
² (0.38) Depth: 8 00:00:06 1549kN
38...Na5 39.Nd2 c3 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Rxa5 cxd2 42.Ra7 Qh7 43.Qd1 Rg7
² (0.60) Depth: 9 00:00:11 2882kN
38...Na5 39.Nd2 c3 40.Qh5+ Kf8 41.Rxa5 cxd2 42.Ra7 Qe7 43.Rxb7 d1Q+ 44.Qxd1 Qxe4
± (0.97) Depth: 10 00:00:27 7163kN
38...Nd8 39.Ra7 b3 40.Nd2 b2 41.Nxc4 Rxg2+ 42.Kf1 Rg7 43.Nxb2 Qb5+ 44.Nd3 Qb1+
45.Ke2 Qc2+ 46.Qd2
± (0.85) Depth: 10 00:00:36 9780kN
38...Rg7 39.h4 Na5 40.Bxb7 Nxb7 41.Ng5+ fxg5 42.f6 Rg6 43.Qh7+ Ke6 44.Qxg6 gxh4
± (0.77) Depth: 10 00:00:53 14264kN
38...Rg7 39.h4 Kg8 40.Qxf6 d3 41.Ng5 d2 42.Rd1 Nd8 43.Bxb7 Nxb7 44.Ne6
± (0.78) Depth: 11 00:01:54 29882kN
>
>>Surprisingly a 30 game match ended:
>>Chessmaster 9000 - Shredder 7.04: 15.5-14.5 (+12 =7 -11)
>>5 min, AMD 2200+, ponder off, Remis.ctg, alternate colours
>>
>>I told The King that the own qeen is better than the opponents qeen, the own
>>rooks are better than the opponent rooks, the own bishops are better than the
>>opponent bishops and so on...
>
>What is the actual margin of piece values?
>
>Running another test with same number of games, same opening positions but this
>time make no margin in piece values for the King would give us further views
>between optimistic and realistic evaluations.
>
>>
>>Its over-optimistically evaluations dont hurt at all.
>>
>>The evaluations were way off but it nevertheless won the match and played a lot
>>of exciting games although it lacks resistance in worse positions.
>>Chessmaster played very strong in positions it had an advantage.
>>
>>Therefore I think it should be a good idea to have completely different
>>evaluations.
>>For clearly better positions an optimistically evaluation (Shredder obviously
>>has very high scores in such positions) and for worse positions a more realistic
>>evaluation.
>
>I think Crafty by Hyatt will penalize further if the position is bad.
>
>If the position is bad there should be resistance, however it is very very hard
>to come back from an attack to the king, I mean if king safety is involved,
>this at least for many engines.
>
>Regards,
>Ferd
>
>>
>>Michael
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