Author: Aaron Gordon
Date: 20:06:56 04/28/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 28, 2003 at 21:42:51, Keith Evans wrote: >On April 28, 2003 at 21:27:34, Aaron Gordon wrote: > >>On April 28, 2003 at 21:17:38, Keith Evans wrote: >> >>>On April 28, 2003 at 19:47:57, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>> >>>>On April 28, 2003 at 15:04:58, Keith Evans wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 10:40:10, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 01:52:41, Keith Evans wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 01:38:15, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 22:52:42, Keith Evans wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 22:25:47, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 21:11:59, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I checked Aaron's story with his contact at AMD. The guy said that AMD didn't >>>>>>>>>>>allow performance testing with the memory _overclocked_, but it certainly isn't >>>>>>>>>>>underclocked. This makes perfect sense to me. (If you allow overclocking memory, >>>>>>>>>>>why wouldn't you also overclock the processor? Then all your benchmarks are >>>>>>>>>>>worthless.) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>So SPEC is comparing non-overclocked Intel to non-overclocked AMD and Intel >>>>>>>>>>>wins. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>When I ran the tests I recalled seeing some information where the P4 was running >>>>>>>>>>CAS2 and the like. The settings I was told to use put me at CAS 2.5. >>>>>>>>>>How would this be 'fair'? Same thing happens on some review pages, but to a much >>>>>>>>>>larger degree. As I have proven in the past tomshardware has actually run the >>>>>>>>>>memory lower than the bus on the athlons tested, put the AGP to 1x, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Also, running CAS2 with all tweaks enabled isn't "overclocking". Especially when >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think that the main point is that the manager basically was trying to prevent >>>>>>>>>memory (and maybe other components) from being run out of specification. This is >>>>>>>>>what I suspected. He probably felt that if AMD ran components out of spec and >>>>>>>>>quoted the numbers, then Intel could get nasty. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Your argument is with him. Determining that memory is being run in spec is not >>>>>>>>>as simple as quoting a single parameter like "CAS 2.5." Download a memory >>>>>>>>>datasheet, a chipset datasheet, see how the BIOS is programming the chipset, >>>>>>>>>draw waveforms, and check all of the parameters. It is painful, but anything >>>>>>>>>else is handwaving. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What I'm trying to point out is the ram was Corsair PC2400XMS CL2. Rated for >>>>>>>>150MHz(300DDR) at CL2.0. I was told to run 133MHz fsb stock (which I have no >>>>>>>>problems with) and CL2.5, bank interleaving off, other timings slower than usual >>>>>>>>which IS much below the rams normal speed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nothing was overclocked, nothing would have been overclocked. Even with maximum >>>>>>>>timings, the ram would be still running UNDER spec. If you'd like to see for >>>>>>>>yourself, here is the PC2400XMS CL2 datasheet from Corsair. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>http://www.corsairmicro.com/main/products/specs/cm64sd256.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The numbers off of the dimm = CM64SD256-2400C2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If for some reason you'd like to see the DIMM, go here.. >>>>>>>>http://www.newageoc.com/pics2/corsair2400cl2.jpg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Then the question remains, why did the manager apparently believe that something >>>>>>>would be operating out of spec? That corsair datasheet doesn't have enough >>>>>>>detail. See page 50 and associated diagrams in the following: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/dram/128Mx4x8x16DDR_D.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>Keith >>>>>> >>>>>>Running 150MHz CL2 ram at 133MHz CL2 isn't going to put it out of spec. >>>>> >>>>>Looking at the JPEG that you posted it looks like the part number for the Micron >>>>>DDR SDRAM is 46V16M8-75B. Without any "Z" after the "75". >>>>> >>>>>That part is not rated for 133 MHz CL2 operation, you need to run it with CL=2.5 >>>>>for 133 MHz. If you want CL=2 then lower the frequency to 100 MHz. >>>>> >>>>>This is from the cover sheet of the Micron specification which I posted. >>>>> >>>>>If there is a "Z" on the package after the "75" that I missed, then I agree with >>>>>you. >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Keith >>>> >>>>So Corsair is selling overclocked ram? The ram itself is rated by Corsair for >>>>150MHz opteration at CAS-2.0. It runs 166MHz CAS-2.0 (but I consider THAT >>>>overclocking, not 150MHz CAS-2.0). 133MHz CAS-2.5 would be extreme >>>>underclocking. It wasn't rated PC2400 CL2 for nothing. >>> >>>"So Corsair is selling overclocked ram?" Yes. So it all makes sense. The AMD >>>manager was not comfortable quoting benchmark results obtained with overclocked >>>RAM. Nice simple explanation with evidence to back it up. >>> >>>Do you slap stickers on the Athlons that you resell quoting higher MHz ratings >>>than AMD? And then if a mom and pop shop buys them, puts them in a motherboard, >>>and sells the resulting PC they can say to their customers that it isn't >>>overclocked because newageoc rates them at the higher speed? >>> >>>This is a no brainer. >> >>From everything I've seen you'll get pretty nasty lawsuits if you overclock >>something, sell it for more and don't specify that it's overclocked. See >>"remarking". >> >>I'm not getting any hell from AMD because people can read plain as day the chips >>are overclocked. Nowhere in on Corsair's page do they say the modules are >>"pre-overclocked" and you can almost guarantee Micron would have a heart attack >>if they did something like that without informing customers. Try emailing both >>Micron and Corsair on the matter and see what they've got to say about it. > >You can call Corsair and ask about getting your money back if you want... > >Please point out any mistakes that I have made. Did you download the Micron >datasheet? Does it confirm what I said? All I see are specifications for -75 and -75Z, not -75B.
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