Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 08:06:43 04/30/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 30, 2003 at 10:53:14, Aaron Gordon wrote: >On April 30, 2003 at 09:56:43, Johan Hutting wrote: > >>On April 29, 2003 at 18:04:21, Aaron Gordon wrote: >> >>>On April 29, 2003 at 17:51:19, Keith Evans wrote: >>> >>>>On April 29, 2003 at 17:45:25, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 29, 2003 at 15:00:51, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 29, 2003 at 14:36:39, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 29, 2003 at 14:20:08, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 29, 2003 at 10:48:24, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On April 29, 2003 at 02:38:17, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 16:32:10, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On April 27, 2003 at 14:50:27, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 22:25:47, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On April 26, 2003 at 21:11:59, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I checked Aaron's story with his contact at AMD. The guy said that AMD didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>allow performance testing with the memory _overclocked_, but it certainly isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>underclocked. This makes perfect sense to me. (If you allow overclocking memory, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>why wouldn't you also overclock the processor? Then all your benchmarks are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>worthless.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>So SPEC is comparing non-overclocked Intel to non-overclocked AMD and Intel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>wins. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>When I ran the tests I recalled seeing some information where the P4 was running >>>>>>>>>>>>>CAS2 and the like. The settings I was told to use put me at CAS 2.5. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>It sounds like you don't really know what configs Intel uses for SPEC testing. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>How would this be 'fair'? Same thing happens on some review pages, but to a much >>>>>>>>>>>>>larger degree. As I have proven in the past tomshardware has actually run the >>>>>>>>>>>>>memory lower than the bus on the athlons tested, put the AGP to 1x, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I think we can all agree that review pages may be biased. My point was that SPEC >>>>>>>>>>>>is not biased, because the vendors are submitting their own scores. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I've said this many, many times already. AMD told me to run CL2.5. I've seen >>>>>>>>>>>them do the same thing for the SPEC benchmark. Try reading the lawsuit message I >>>>>>>>>>>posted here again. I'm sure they'd run the fastest timings in the bios if they >>>>>>>>>>>could. I can, and have, and don't have anything to fear from Intel. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>slow. I went and 'rented' one myself. I compared a few clock speeds, I'll post >>>>>>>>>>>>>what I have so far but the most for now will be just the max both systems could >>>>>>>>>>>>>do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>GCC (Linux kernel compile times) >>>>>>>>>>>>>XP-2.50GHz: 119.5 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>>>P4-3.32GHz: 126.87 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>>>Gzip: >>>>>>>>>>>>>P4-3.32GHz: 25.340 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>>>XP-2.50GHz: 26.060 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>etc. Your gcc test shows a 41% improvement in IPC for the Athlon, vs. the 9% >>>>>>>>>>>>improvement in official SPEC submissions. You get a 29% improvement in Gzip vs. >>>>>>>>>>>>a 22% improvement. How do you explain this? You're obviously a big AMD fan, why >>>>>>>>>>>>should I think your results are somehow more accurate than results from the >>>>>>>>>>>>companies themselves? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I'm only a fan of whats fastest. Also, if I see a good product getting reviewed >>>>>>>>>>>or tested poorly I'm going to make a comment. AMD, Intel, Cyrix/VIA, doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>matter. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>First of all, I used the fastest timings on both systems. I didn't run CL2.5 as >>>>>>>>>>>some of the SPEC systems run. I used the fastest drivers I could find on both >>>>>>>>>>>systems. The point is.. when both systems are configured so they just can't >>>>>>>>>>>possibly go ANY faster this is what you get. Believe what you want, doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>matter to me either way. I'm just reporting my test results. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Can you run the same tests with slower memory settings? Do you see a 30% >>>>>>>>>>difference? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>When I was doing the Quake3 benchmarks for AMD I saw a little over 20% drop in >>>>>>>>>FPS from running the slow memory timings. This is why I was wanting them to use >>>>>>>>>the CAS-2.0, 4-bank interleave, etc settings.. because it beat the crap out of >>>>>>>>>the P4-2GHz they were testing again. With the timings at the slowest settings >>>>>>>>>the 1900+/1.6GHz lost by a few fps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I didn't try slower timings in the other benchmarks. I'm only interested in what >>>>>>>>>the systems could at their peak. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Interested or not, this indicates that your memory timing explanation probably >>>>>>>>doesn't entirely explain the differences between your benchmarking and official >>>>>>>>SPEC submissions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-Tom >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The bit of testing I did in the past with crapped out memory timings did prove >>>>>>>that the memory settings helped. I only said I RECENTLY tested Quake3, that >>>>>>>doesn't mean I didn't do any testing at all. If I hadn't I wouldn't be making >>>>>>>such a fuss over this stuff. The ram settings DO help a lot. As I said before, >>>>>>>you're welcome to telnet into my machine and run the tests yourself. >>>>>> >>>>>>\ >>>>>>However, in the case of Intel or AMD, I'd suspect that if they want to test >>>>>>using cas 2.5 memory at 133mhz, then they would be hesitant to run that memory >>>>>>at cas 2.0 even if it would run. Since it is outside the spec provided by the >>>>>>manufacturer of the memory itself. >>>>>> >>>>>>I can't imagine a vendor wanting to publish SPEC numbers, and then have a huge >>>>>>press release 6 months later saying "vendor used unsafe memory timing to produce >>>>>>a lead in SPEC numbers..." when that unsafe timing fails for someone else. >>>>>> >>>>>>specifications are specifications. Going beyond them invites trouble. I'm >>>>>>running a Merc V6 outboard and I have taken the compression to extreme levels, >>>>>>as well as RPM. And I have had to rebuild the thing at _my_ expense when it >>>>>>comes apart due to my exceeding the specs, even if it were still in the warranty >>>>>>period. I accept that without a hassle. >>>>>> >>>>>>Just because John Tiger can run his stock merc at 7500 against an advertised >>>>>>peak rpm of 6500 does _not_ mean that someone else is going to be able to do >>>>>>it with success... >>>>>> >>>>>>Same for memory, or anything else. I trust the manufacturers to test and decide >>>>>>on what the upper bounds are, and I live within those if I want reliability. >>>>>>For racing someone up and down the river here, I want horsepower, with >>>>>>reliability a distant second place overall. But the average mom and pop that >>>>>>take their runabout out for a Sunday afternoon of skiing or pulling a tube >>>>>>around the lake want _reliability_. And that is what Mercury/Evinrude/Intel/AMD >>>>>>want to provide... >>>>>> >>>>>>Us "hot rodders" want something different, but we don't necessarily have to push >>>>>>_our_ wants down "mom and pops" throats... >>>>> >>>>>I completely understand, but I'm curious as to the rating Corsair put on the ram >>>>>itself. I emailed them about it and will post the response here if I get one. >>>> >>>>Also if this is why the manager wouldn't let you run with CL=2, then I would ask >>>>him why he didn't just let you stuff in a faster DIMM. I don't think that >>>>Corsair even sells this one any more. (I may have missed it.) >>> >>>Yeah, they don't unfortunately. At the time though I didn't have any faster >>>dimms, the Corsair PC2400XMS CL2 was the fastest stuff out. >> >>http://www.specbench.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2003q1/cpu2000-20030224-01964.html >> >>==> CL2 > >What about this? That was an ASUS box with PC2700 CL2 DRAM. I think that was what he was trying to point out.
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