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Subject: Re: Question to Kurt Utzinger, What do you estimate the Real elo of shredder

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 01:34:22 05/01/03

Go up one level in this thread


On May 01, 2003 at 03:59:30, Kurt Utzinger wrote:

>On May 01, 2003 at 00:54:22, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On April 30, 2003 at 19:05:22, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>
>>>On April 30, 2003 at 13:47:23, George Tsavdaris wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 30, 2003 at 13:29:09, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On April 30, 2003 at 12:28:54, WILLIAMS POLK wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Would you give it 2400 elo? Can you still Draw against it like the other
>>>>>>engines?
>>>>>
>>>>>    2400 Elo=yes / second question: so far played no games myself. will
>>>>>    follow but I think a draw isn't impossible.
>>>>>    Kurt
>>>>
>>>>Why do you think that Shredder (7/7.04) is only 2400 elo? According to
>>>>the results of Fritz 8 and Junior 8, the elo of the todays strongest
>>>>programs is around 2800 on a fast machine of course. Don't you
>>>>believe that on a pentium 3 MHz Shredder 7 is at least 2720 elo?
>>>>Of course the real question is if <Shredder7+ Pentium X MHz> is 2400 elo.
>>>>For example Shredder 7 on a Pentium 80.000 MHz is surely 2800 elo as
>>>>chess is not played by Shredder or by pentium but with both of them.
>>>
>>>    It might be that I did not understand the question correctly. I thought it
>>>    was meant if Shredder7 would [at least] have 2400 Elo and therefore
>>>    answered with yes. People know my opinion: computer ratings are 200-300
>>>    points too high, but I do not want to again argue about this. I do simply
>>>    not understand why it should be possible for 2000-Elo-players to get 2-3
>>>    draws out of 10 games if the top programs have 2700-2800 Elo.
>>
>>Maybe it is possible for the same players to do even better against kramnik and
>>kasparov in case that these players do not know the opponent and do not try to
>>play in a different way against them(for example by avoiding positions with big
>>chances for draw).
>>
>>It is known that GM's often agree to GM draws in 10-20 moves and I think that
>>with that style 2000 players have chances to draw against them.
>>
>> Neither the
>>>    matches Deep Fritz vs Kramnik nor Deep Junior vs Kasparov have convinced
>>>    me. Both programs made too often bad moves and only psychological
>>>    reasons and severe public pressure for the players prevented clear wins
>>>    in favour of the human beings.
>>
>>There is another factor that people seem to forget.
>>Not winning on purpose in the hope that a draw will make more interest in
>>another match.
>
>>
>>I think that matches against humans when humans get so much money only for
>>losing is a bad idea.
>>I think that there is enough circumstances evidence to say that kramnik did not
>>win on purpose.
>
>     Hi Uri
>     Do you really think Kramnik was 'cheating'?
>     Kurt

Unfrtunately this is my opinion.

It is based on the pgn.
I do not believe that 2800 player can do these mistakes without cheating

If it was only one mistake then it is possible but 2 mistakes that I even expect
myself not to do in the same match.

It is too much for me to believe that he was not cheating.

Uri







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