Author: Jim Bond
Date: 09:11:11 05/04/03
Go up one level in this thread
On May 04, 2003 at 11:20:56, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 04, 2003 at 10:44:15, Jim Bond wrote: > ><snipped> >>>possible reasons for shredder's success in the endgame or gettting better >>>endgames may be better search rules and better evaluation of endgames. >>> >>>Uri >> >>You are making sense. I only said in the beginning that Shredder's success in >>the ending game COULD be PARTLY due to its ability to probe TB more often than >>other engines. > >No > >It is very easy to teach programs to probe tablebases at every node but >programmers found that it is counter productive because being significantly >slower in nodes per seconds is not worth the extra knolwedge. > >I do not think that programmers of Fritz,Tiger are stupid and I assume that they >tested and found that probing TB more often is not productive for them. > >Note also that I see no tablebases probes in analysis of shredder7.04 even when >it is clear from the analysis that shredder is using them so I have no way to >test your theory that shredder7.04 is using more tablebases than Fritz. > >Shredder7 reports about tablebases but the best shredder(7.04) does not report >about tablebases. > >New game >[D]7k/7p/8/P5p1/7P/8/8/6K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Shredder 7.04: > >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 2/2 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 4/4 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 5/5 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 6/6 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 7/7 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 8/8 00:00:00 >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 9/9 00:00:00 1kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 3kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 11/11 00:00:00 7kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 12/12 00:00:00 19kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 13/13 00:00:01 74kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 14/14 00:00:01 155kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 15/15 00:00:02 288kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 16/16 00:00:03 488kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 17/17 00:00:05 791kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 18/18 00:00:07 1255kN >1.hxg5 > +- (#14) Depth: 19/19 00:00:13 2253kN > >(Blass, Tel-Aviv 04.05.2003) > > >Uri It looks like you might have a six men TB for this position already otherwise you should see main lines. You also should want to make sure you deleted the shredder.plr (position learning file) in your engines directory before each test. Let me show you the difference between with and without TB. You will see that without TB, shredder never for sure that there is a mate in 14 whereas with TB, Shredder knows for sure there is mate in 14 in 4 seconds (slower PIII machine). That is the power of TB. You will also see the TB= counts in the analysis. **** WITHOUT TABLEBASE **** 7k/7p/8/P5p1/7P/8/8/6K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 1.hxg5 +- (7.81) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.hxg5 +- (7.81) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 +- (7.59) Depth: 2/2 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 +- (8.04) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 +- (8.04) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 +- (8.00) Depth: 4/4 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 +- (8.28) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kf8 +- (8.74) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.Kf2 Kf7 3.a6 Kf8 +- (8.40) Depth: 6/10 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 4.Kf2 +- (8.38) Depth: 6/10 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf7 4.Kg2 Ke6 +- (8.63) Depth: 7/11 00:00:00 1kN 1.hxg5 h6 2.a6 h5 3.a7 h4 +- (9.13) Depth: 7/12 00:00:00 2kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kg6 4.Kf1 Kf5 5.a8Q +- (9.13) Depth: 7/12 00:00:00 4kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kg6 4.Kh1 Kf5 5.a8Q +- (9.00) Depth: 8/14 00:00:00 6kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kg7 4.Kf2 Kg8 5.Ke2 Kg7 +- (9.25) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 8kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kg7 4.g6 h6 5.Kg2 Kg8 +- (9.48) Depth: 9/14 00:00:00 16kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 h6 3.a7 Kf8 +- (9.73) Depth: 10/16 00:00:00 30kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 h5 4.a8Q h4 5.Kg2 Kg7 6.Qe4 +- (10.23) Depth: 10/16 00:00:00 30kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kg7 4.a8Q h5 5.g6 h4 6.Qe8 +- (10.32) Depth: 10/16 00:00:00 36kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kh8 4.g6 h6 5.a8Q+ Kg7 6.Qa7+ Kh8 7.Kg2 +- (10.60) Depth: 11/18 00:00:00 42kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 h6 +- (11.10) Depth: 11/18 00:00:00 43kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kf7 4.a8Q Kg6 5.Qe8+ Kf5 6.Qf7+ Kg4 7.Qxh7 Kxg5 8.Qg8+ Kf4 9.Qc4+ +- (12.12) Depth: 11/22 00:00:01 92kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kf7 4.a8Q Kg6 5.Qg8+ Kf5 6.Kf2 Kg4 7.Qxh7 Kxg5 +- (12.21) Depth: 12/21 00:00:01 118kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kf7 4.g6+ Kg7 5.a8Q Kxg6 +- (12.46) Depth: 13/24 00:00:01 162kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q Kh4 +- (12.57) Depth: 13/24 00:00:02 290kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q h5 5.Qd5+ Kf4 6.Qd4+ Kg5 7.Qe5+ Kg4 8.Qe4+ Kg5 9.Qe5+ Kg4 10.Qe4+ Kg5 11.Qe5+ Kg4 +- (12.58) Depth: 14/25 00:00:03 554kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q h5 5.Qd5+ Kf4 6.Qd4+ Kg5 7.Qe5+ Kg4 8.Qg7+ Kf4 9.Qd4+ Kg5 10.Qe5+ Kg4 11.Qg7+ Kf4 12.Qd4+ Kg5 +- (12.58) Depth: 15/28 00:00:04 723kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q h5 5.Qd5+ Kf4 6.Qd4+ Kg5 7.Qe5+ Kg4 8.Qg7+ Kf4 9.Kg2 h4 10.Qf8+ Kg4 11.Qb4+ Kh5 12.Qb5+ Kg6 13.Qd3+ Kg5 14.Qg3+ hxg3 15.Kg1 +- (12.57) Depth: 16/30 00:00:09 1577kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q h5 5.Qf3 h4 6.Kg2 h3+ 7.Kh2 +- (12.68) Depth: 17/31 00:00:15 2736kN 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q h5 5.Kg2 Kf5 6.Qd5+ Kf4 7.Qd4+ Kf5 8.Qd3+ Ke5 9.Qe3+ Kf5 10.Qa3 +- (12.80) Depth: 18/33 00:00:25 4612kN **** WITH TABLEBASE **** 7k/7p/8/P5p1/7P/8/8/6K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 1.hxg5 +- (7.81) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.hxg5 +- (7.81) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 +- (7.59) Depth: 2/2 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 +- (8.04) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 +- (8.04) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 +- (8.00) Depth: 4/4 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 +- (8.28) Depth: 5/6 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kf8 +- (8.74) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.Kg2 Kf7 3.a6 Kg8 +- (8.48) Depth: 6/10 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 4.Kf2 +- (8.38) Depth: 6/10 00:00:00 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 h6 +- (8.63) Depth: 7/10 00:00:00 1kN, tb=89 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Kg6 4.Kf2 Kh5 +- (9.14) Depth: 7/12 00:00:00 2kN, tb=103 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf7 4.Kg2 Kg8 +- (9.14) Depth: 7/12 00:00:00 2kN, tb=195 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kg7 4.Kf2 Kg6 5.Ke3 +- (9.01) Depth: 8/14 00:00:00 5kN, tb=395 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf7 4.g6+ Ke8 +- (9.27) Depth: 9/14 00:00:01 6kN, tb=514 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kg7 4.g6 h6 5.Kg2 Kg8 +- (9.48) Depth: 9/14 00:00:01 9kN, tb=864 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf8 3.a7 Kg8 4.Kf2 Kg7 5.a8Q Kg6 6.Qe4+ Kh5 +- (9.73) Depth: 10/14 00:00:01 15kN, tb=1097 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 4.g6 h6 +- (10.26) Depth: 10/18 00:00:01 16kN, tb=1156 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kf5 4.g6 h6 5.g7 Kf6 6.a8Q Kg5 7.g8Q+ Kh4 +- (21.11) Depth: 10/20 00:00:02 25kN, tb=1639 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.g6+ Ke7 4.gxh7 +- (21.42) Depth: 11/17 00:00:02 30kN, tb=1989 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf8 3.a7 Ke7 4.g6 h5 5.g7 Kf6 6.g8Q Kf5 7.a8Q +- (21.42) Depth: 11/20 00:00:02 49kN, tb=2258 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kh8 4.g6 h6 5.g7+ Kg8 6.a8Q+ Kf7 7.g8Q+ Kf6 8.Kf2 +- (21.70) Depth: 12/24 00:00:03 59kN, tb=2518 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg8 3.a7 Kf7 4.g6+ hxg6 +- (#15) Depth: 12/24 00:00:03 60kN, tb=2531 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kf7 3.a7 Ke6 4.g6 h6 5.a8R +- (#15) Depth: 12/24 00:00:03 112kN, tb=2984 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 +- (#14) Depth: 13/21 00:00:04 179kN, tb=3738 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q +- (#14) Depth: 14/22 00:00:04 231kN, tb=4313 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q +- (#14) Depth: 15/25 00:00:05 342kN, tb=4733 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q +- (#14) Depth: 16/27 00:00:06 615kN, tb=5455 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q +- (#14) Depth: 17/29 00:00:11 1213kN, tb=6889 1.hxg5 Kg7 2.a6 Kg6 3.a7 Kxg5 4.a8Q +- (#14) Depth: 18/31 00:00:18 2326kN, tb=9329 Convined?
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