Author: Jorge Pichard
Date: 14:34:45 05/09/03
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2003 at 16:53:10, Drexel,Michael wrote: >On May 09, 2003 at 16:11:53, Jorge Pichard wrote: > >>On May 09, 2003 at 15:40:24, Drexel,Michael wrote: >> >>>On May 09, 2003 at 13:55:55, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>> >>>>On May 09, 2003 at 10:12:40, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>>[D] rnbqkb1r/pp1np1pp/4p3/2pp4/3P4/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq c6 0 5 >>>>> >>>>>What do your programs think about this well known position? >>>>>Shredder and Fritz 8 clearly favour white here. for example : >>>>> >>>>>Analysis by Shredder 7.04: >>>>> >>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 Nf6 8.Bb5+ Nc6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 e5 11.Bxc6+ Qd7 >>>>> ± (0.91) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 6kN >>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 Nf6 8.Bb5+ Nc6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 e5 11.Bxc6+ Qd7 >>>>> ± (0.91) Depth: 11/11 00:00:00 16kN >>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 cxd4 8.Bb5 Nc6 9.Nxe6 Qa5 10.Nxf8 dxc3 11.Qxd5 >>>>> ± (0.83) Depth: 12/28 00:00:04 1435kN >>>>>6.dxc5 >>>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 12/28 00:00:05 1435kN >>>>>6.dxc5 >>>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 12/28 00:00:05 1503kN >>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Nxd5 Nxd4 10.Bb5+ >>>>> ± (0.93) Depth: 13/30 00:00:24 8276kN >>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Nf3 Bg7 9.Bb5+ Bd7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Bxd7 >>>>> ± (0.90) Depth: 14/30 00:00:51 16690kN >>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Bg5 Nc6 9.Bb5 h6 10.Bf4 g5 11.Be5 Bg7 12.Bxc6+ bxc6 13.Qf4 >>>>> ± (0.88) Depth: 15/31 00:01:44 35928kN >>>>> >>>>>Looks like there is a clear advantage for white. White is a pawn down and the >>>>>evaluation is almost +1.0. >>>>> >>>>>However strong Chessplayers clearly seem to favour black here. Here are the >>>>>highest rated Chessplayers who played this position in the last 6 years. All >>>>>played with black pieces. All games ended 0-1: >>>>> >>>>>[Event "Santos Mario Covas 1st"] >>>>>[Site "Santos"] >>>>>[Date "2001.01.29"] >>>>>[Round "3"] >>>>>[White "Benares de sa Leitao, Ricardo"] >>>>>[Black "Milos, Gilberto"] >>>>>[Result "0-1"] >>>>>[ECO "B02"] >>>>>[WhiteElo "2276"] >>>>>[BlackElo "2608"] >>>>>[PlyCount "60"] >>>>> >>>> >>>>Just my two cents if Milos with a 2608 had White against Benares with Black >>>>which is a 300+ plus difference in rating and Benares wins than the case would >>>>be open for discussion. In this case the stonger player simply outplayed the >>>>weaker player. >>>> >>>>Jorge >>> >>> >>>The discussion is not about this game. Its about the position in general. >>>All this GMs wont play this opening variation if they were not convinced >>>that the position is at least O.K. for black. 300 Elo difference is nothing in >>>human chess. >> >> >>I was not discussing this game at all, simply from from the position which you >>mentioned. Indeed even 100 rating points difference between human opponents is >>enough to take either side of this position and win it for the stronger player. > >Nonsense Prove it, simply let Shredder 7.04 play both sides, I already did under shootout and the White side won. > > >Jorge > > >The reason why I posted this was to show that mobility is not everything >in chess. The secret of Shredders success is: It gives very high scores >for mobility. >Therefore Shredder often seems to play with a plan (of course he doesnt) while >other programs just shuffle around their pieces. >In this position the pawn majority in the center is an important factor which is >underestimated by many top programs. >Both black bishops can't move and so Shredder and Fritz clearly favour white. >They dont understand the nature of the position at all. > If that is the case, why don't you play against Fritz 8 or shredder 7.04 and show us how you can win. If you can not prove it, you can't support your case that Black side is better. Jorge
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