Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 15:14:17 05/09/03
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2003 at 17:34:45, Jorge Pichard wrote: >On May 09, 2003 at 16:53:10, Drexel,Michael wrote: > >>On May 09, 2003 at 16:11:53, Jorge Pichard wrote: >> >>>On May 09, 2003 at 15:40:24, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>> >>>>On May 09, 2003 at 13:55:55, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 09, 2003 at 10:12:40, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[D] rnbqkb1r/pp1np1pp/4p3/2pp4/3P4/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq c6 0 5 >>>>>> >>>>>>What do your programs think about this well known position? >>>>>>Shredder and Fritz 8 clearly favour white here. for example : >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Shredder 7.04: >>>>>> >>>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 Nf6 8.Bb5+ Nc6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 e5 11.Bxc6+ Qd7 >>>>>> ± (0.91) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 6kN >>>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 Nf6 8.Bb5+ Nc6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 e5 11.Bxc6+ Qd7 >>>>>> ± (0.91) Depth: 11/11 00:00:00 16kN >>>>>>6.Nf3 g6 7.Ng5 cxd4 8.Bb5 Nc6 9.Nxe6 Qa5 10.Nxf8 dxc3 11.Qxd5 >>>>>> ± (0.83) Depth: 12/28 00:00:04 1435kN >>>>>>6.dxc5 >>>>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 12/28 00:00:05 1435kN >>>>>>6.dxc5 >>>>>> ± (0.85) Depth: 12/28 00:00:05 1503kN >>>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Nxd5 Nxd4 10.Bb5+ >>>>>> ± (0.93) Depth: 13/30 00:00:24 8276kN >>>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Nf3 Bg7 9.Bb5+ Bd7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Bxd7 >>>>>> ± (0.90) Depth: 14/30 00:00:51 16690kN >>>>>>6.dxc5 g6 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Bg5 Nc6 9.Bb5 h6 10.Bf4 g5 11.Be5 Bg7 12.Bxc6+ bxc6 13.Qf4 >>>>>> ± (0.88) Depth: 15/31 00:01:44 35928kN >>>>>> >>>>>>Looks like there is a clear advantage for white. White is a pawn down and the >>>>>>evaluation is almost +1.0. >>>>>> >>>>>>However strong Chessplayers clearly seem to favour black here. Here are the >>>>>>highest rated Chessplayers who played this position in the last 6 years. All >>>>>>played with black pieces. All games ended 0-1: >>>>>> >>>>>>[Event "Santos Mario Covas 1st"] >>>>>>[Site "Santos"] >>>>>>[Date "2001.01.29"] >>>>>>[Round "3"] >>>>>>[White "Benares de sa Leitao, Ricardo"] >>>>>>[Black "Milos, Gilberto"] >>>>>>[Result "0-1"] >>>>>>[ECO "B02"] >>>>>>[WhiteElo "2276"] >>>>>>[BlackElo "2608"] >>>>>>[PlyCount "60"] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Just my two cents if Milos with a 2608 had White against Benares with Black >>>>>which is a 300+ plus difference in rating and Benares wins than the case would >>>>>be open for discussion. In this case the stonger player simply outplayed the >>>>>weaker player. >>>>> >>>>>Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>>The discussion is not about this game. Its about the position in general. >>>>All this GMs wont play this opening variation if they were not convinced >>>>that the position is at least O.K. for black. 300 Elo difference is nothing in >>>>human chess. >>> >>> >>>I was not discussing this game at all, simply from from the position which you >>>mentioned. Indeed even 100 rating points difference between human opponents is >>>enough to take either side of this position and win it for the stronger player. >> >>Nonsense > >Prove it, simply let Shredder 7.04 play both sides, I already did under shootout >and the White side won. Of course. Shredder cant play this position decent with the black pieces. It eventually thinks it is clearly worse. >> >> >>Jorge >> >> >>The reason why I posted this was to show that mobility is not everything >>in chess. The secret of Shredders success is: It gives very high scores >>for mobility. >>Therefore Shredder often seems to play with a plan (of course he doesnt) while >>other programs just shuffle around their pieces. >>In this position the pawn majority in the center is an important factor which is >>underestimated by many top programs. >>Both black bishops can't move and so Shredder and Fritz clearly favour white. >>They dont understand the nature of the position at all. >> > > >If that is the case, why don't you play against Fritz 8 or shredder 7.04 and >show us how you can win. If you can not prove it, you can't support your case >that Black side is better. My point was not that black side is better. My point was that black is by no means worse in this position. Obviously, a game against Shredder cant prove anything. Of course I saw that its optimistic evaluations disappear soon. In a Correspondence game I would get at least a draw. > >Jorge
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