Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Nobody's perfect - Shredder7.04 announces mate in 0 !?

Author: Jaime Benito de Valle Ruiz

Date: 09:30:56 05/13/03

Go up one level in this thread


On May 13, 2003 at 00:56:49, Jouni Uski wrote:

>[D]5bk1/p3p1p1/p3P1P1/p7/p7/8/P7/5K2 w - -
>
>This is one of my oldest test positions with mate in 17 (Ke2). It's still
>unsolved by top pros, but Yace and Crafty can solve it. Interestingly
>Shredder7.04 first says mate in 22 and then mate in 0 (#0) !?!?
>
>Jouni

This is another "highly improbable" position where the moves of one of the sides
are only a few (if not one) forced moves, and at the same time, it has a
considerable material advantage.
The problem with this type of positions seems to be that the Null-Move (among
other prunning-methods) is causing more damage in the search than anything else,
because it prunes all options due to the fact that one side has a considerable
material advantage and no apparent improvement takes place for anyone. The
search finds the repetition draw sooner or later, and any other options are
discarded by the null-move because it doesn't "see" the mate soon enough, and
one is loosing from the material point of view.

This is just a guess, of course.

Another plausible theory could be that some programs decide to stop the search
if the score has not improved significantly after several ply, and the other
side is clearly better (again, from the material point of view). Maybe any other
similar kind of reduction, such as this-seems-to-be-a-draw reduction; who knows?

Fritz 8, for example, doesn't find anything but a plain draw firstly, and then,
gradually and after several seconds, the score increases, but still no mate.
Change the Selectivity from 2 to 0, and it will find one mate in no time (#24).
Untick the Futility Prunning, and it will announce #18 in no time (Hash cleared
every time).

I remember that my program could not find one of these obvious forced mates when
I first tried. Then I turned off the Null-move, and solve the problem
instantaneously. That version had still no reductions or futility prunning yet,
though.

In any case, it is interesting to see how these positions are easily solved by
just adding some more "useless trapped pieces" to balance the material score:
After adding some pawns and 2 bishops, some programs like Fritz 8 or Schredder 7
find "a solution" (not necessarily the best one) fairly quickly:

[D]5bk1/p3p1p1/p3P1P1/p3P1PB/p5PB/6P1/P7/5K2 w - - 0 1


Regards



This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.