Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 15:49:38 05/13/03
Go up one level in this thread
On May 13, 2003 at 17:03:01, Martin Giepmans wrote:
>On May 13, 2003 at 16:48:15, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On May 13, 2003 at 16:24:11, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On May 13, 2003 at 15:57:52, Jaime Benito de Valle Ruiz wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 13, 2003 at 15:18:22, Martin Giepmans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>From a game Ruffian - SpiderChess
>>>>>
>>>>>[D]8/7p/p2k4/1p4p1/4K1P1/P6P/8/8 b - - 0 50
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In this position SpiderChess played 50 .. Kc5? (it should have played
>>>>>Ke6 Kd4 a5 -+) and thought it was winning.
>>>>>
>>>>>The game continued:
>>>>>51. Kf5 Kc4 52. Kxg5 Kb3 53. Kh6 Kxa3 54. Kxh7 b4 55. h4 b3 56. g5 b2
>>>>>57. h5 b1=Q+ 58. g6 Qe4 59. h6 a5 60. Kg7 Qe7+ 61. Kh8 Qf8+ 62. Kh7 Qf5 63.
>>>>>Kg7 Kb3 64. h7 Qe5+ 65. Kg8 Qe8+ 66. Kg7 Qe7+ 67. Kg8 Qd8+ 68. Kg7 Qc7+ 69.
>>>>>Kg8 Qc8+ 70. Kg7 Qc3+ 71. Kg8 Qc4+ 72. Kg7 Qd4+ 73. Kg8 Qd5+ 74. Kg7 Qb7+
>>>>>75. Kg8 Qa8+ 76. Kg7 Qa7+ 77. Kg8 Qb6 78. Kg7 Kc2 79. h8=Q Qd4+ 80. Kg8
>>>>>Qd5+ 81. Kh7 Qh5+ 82. Kg7 Qe5+ 83. Kh7 Qh5+ 84. Kg7 Qe5+ 85. Kh7 Qh2+ 86.
>>>>>Kg8 Qb8+ 87. Kh7 Qh2+ 88. Kg7 Qc7+ 89. Kh6 Qf4+ 90. Kh7 Qh4+ 91. Kg7 Qe7+
>>>>>92. Kh6 Qe3+ 93. Kh7 Qh3+ 94. Kg8 Qb3+ 95. Kf8 Qb8+ 96. Kg7 Qb7+ 97. Kh6
>>>>>Qh1+ 98. Kg7 Qb7+ 99. Kh6 Qh1+ 100. Kg7 Qb7+ 101. Kh6 Qh1+ 102. Kg7 Qb7+
>>>>>{Drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2.
>>>>>
>>>>>How do other engines fare?
>>>>>
>>>>>Martin
>>>>
>>>>I don't see any draw anywhere. Black will easily win even after Kc5!
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, Fritz 8 for example, gives a score of more than 8 pawns to black from
>>>>the beginning; that's more than enough for me.
>>>
>>>Not for me.
>>>There are positions when a score of more than +8 pawns means a draw.
>>>
>>>>After move 63...., Kb3, Fritz's score drops 6 pawns!!!! (that's what I call a
>>>>bad move). Once White makes h7, the situation gets too close to a draw, although
>>>>I haven't analysed it yet.
>>>
>>>And how do you prevent h7 or g7?
>>>
>>>You can give a lot of checks but I do not see how do they help
>>>
>>>White only needs to be careful not to put both pawns at h7,g7 and lose because
>>>of zugzwang.
>>>
>>>Shredder see a score of more than +10 but cannot do a progress against me.
>>>
>>>[Event "Blitz:25'"]
>>>[Site "eim"]
>>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>>[Round "?"]
>>>[White "w"]
>>>[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
>>>[Result "*"]
>>>[SetUp "1"]
>>>[FEN "8/7p/p2k4/1p4p1/4K1P1/P6P/8/8 b - - 0 1"]
>>>[PlyCount "47"]
>>>[TimeControl "1500"]
>>>
>>>1... Kc5 2. Kf5 Kc4 3. Kxg5 Kb3 4. Kh6 Kxa3 5. Kxh7 b4 6. h4 b3 7. g5 b2 8. h5
>>>b1=Q+ 9. g6 Qe4 10. h6 a5 11. Kg7 Qe7+ 12. Kh8 Qf8+ 13. Kh7 Qf5 14. Kg7 Qd7+ {
>>>[%emt 0:00:26]} 15. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qc8+ {[%emt 0:00:34]} 16. Kg7 {
>>>[%emt 0:00:31]} Qc3+ {[%emt 0:00:06]} 17. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:39]} Kb4 {
>>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 18. g7 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qc7 {[%emt 0:01:04]} 19. Kh8 {
>>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qf4 {[%emt 0:01:03]} 20. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:11]} Qf5+ {
>>>[%emt 0:00:49]} 21. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qe5 {[%emt 0:00:53]} 22. Kh7 {
>>>[%emt 0:00:09]} Qc7 {[%emt 0:00:46]} 23. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:41]} Qd6 {
>>>[%emt 0:00:54]} 24. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Qe7 {[%emt 0:00:42]} *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>The game was finished in a draw.
>>I admit that I looked at the analysis of shredder during the game but
>>the point of the game was not to check if I can draw with shredder but to check
>>if the move that was described as bad move was really bad.
>>
>>[Event "Blitz:25'"]
>>[Site "eim"]
>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>[Round "?"]
>>[White "w"]
>>[Black "Shredder 7.04"]
>>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>>[SetUp "1"]
>>[FEN "8/7p/p2k4/1p4p1/4K1P1/P6P/8/8 b - - 0 1"]
>>[PlyCount "128"]
>>[TimeControl "1500"]
>>
>>1... Kc5 2. Kf5 Kc4 3. Kxg5 Kb3 4. Kh6 Kxa3 5. Kxh7 b4 6. h4 b3 7. g5 b2 8. h5
>>b1=Q+ 9. g6 Qe4 10. h6 a5 11. Kg7 Qe7+ 12. Kh8 Qf8+ 13. Kh7 Qf5 14. Kg7 Qd7+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:26]} 15. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qc8+ {[%emt 0:00:34]} 16. Kg7 {
>>[%emt 0:00:31]} Qc3+ {[%emt 0:00:06]} 17. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:39]} Kb4 {
>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 18. g7 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qc7 {[%emt 0:01:04]} 19. Kh8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qf4 {[%emt 0:01:03]} 20. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:11]} Qf5+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:49]} 21. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qe5 {[%emt 0:00:53]} 22. Kh7 {
>>[%emt 0:00:09]} Qc7 {[%emt 0:00:46]} 23. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:41]} Qd6 {
>>[%emt 0:00:54]} 24. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Qe7 {[%emt 0:00:42]} 25. Kh8 {
>>[%emt 0:01:16]} Qf6 {[%emt 0:02:48]} 26. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:43]} Qf5+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 27. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:07]} Qe5 {[%emt 0:00:13]} 28. Kh7 {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qe7 {[%emt 0:00:44]} 29. Kh8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qd6 {
>>[%emt 0:00:14]} 30. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Qd3+ {[%emt 0:00:18]} 31. Kh8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:04]} Qg6 {[%emt 0:00:03]} 32. h7 {[%emt 0:00:20]} Qf6 {
>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 33. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qe6+ {[%emt 0:00:12]} 34. Kf8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:07]} Qf6+ {[%emt 0:00:30]} 35. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Qd8+ {
>>[%emt 0:06:28]} 36. Kf7 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Qd7+ {[%emt 0:00:00]} 37. Kf8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:12]} Qf5+ {[%emt 0:00:00]} 38. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qe6+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:04]} 39. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qf5+ {[%emt 0:00:06]} 40. Kg8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:02]} Qc8+ {[%emt 0:00:08]} 41. Kf7 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Qc7+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} 42. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qc5+ {[%emt 0:00:02]} 43. Kg8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:04]} Qc8+ {[%emt 0:00:05]} 44. Kf7 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qc4+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:15]} 45. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Qc5+ {[%emt 0:00:11]} 46. Kg8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qc4+ {[%emt 0:00:03]} 47. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:25]} Qf4+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 48. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qb8+ {[%emt 0:00:05]} 49. Kf7 {
>>[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb7+ {[%emt 0:00:15]} 50. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:07]} Qd5+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:06]} 51. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qd6+ {[%emt 0:01:09]} 52. Kf7 {
>>[%emt 0:00:02]} Qd5+ {[%emt 0:00:05]} 53. Kf8 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qd8+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} 54. Kf7 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc7+ {[%emt 0:00:15]} 55. Kf8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:05]} Qf4+ {[%emt 0:00:01]} 56. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Kc5 {
>>[%emt 0:00:01]} 57. h8=Q {[%emt 0:00:07]} Qc4+ {[%emt 0:00:00]} 58. Kf8 {
>>[%emt 0:00:05]} Qf4+ {[%emt 0:00:01]} 59. Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:22]} Qb8+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:00]} 60. Kh7 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Qb1+ {[%emt 0:00:02]} 61. Kh6 {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qh1+ {[%emt 0:00:03]} 62. Kg5 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qg2+ {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} 63. Kf5 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qf3+ {[%emt 0:00:09]} 64. Kg5 {
>>[%emt 0:00:03]} Qg2+ {[%emt 0:00:01]} 65. Kf6 {[%emt 0:00:04]} 1/2-1/2
>>
>>Uri
>
>It seems that the other posters who said that Kc5 is not the real error
>are right. Black should play a5 instead of Kc5c4 and Kc4b3.
>SpiderChess played without tablebases.
>They would probably have helped here.
>
>Martin
Ke6! Is a good move and holds controls both sides of the board, but it appears
either Kc5!? or a5!!? would win as well.
I didn't do a deep analysis, but the immeadiate a5 seems sound and winning.
As a matter of fact I think 1. a5 kills but all three moves Ke6, Kc5, and a5 win
for Black. Ke6 is slower and so is a5 so computers choose Kc5.
Terry
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