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Subject: Re: Ruffian's blind spot

Author: Will Singleton

Date: 08:11:49 05/20/03

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On May 20, 2003 at 02:17:14, Tim Foden wrote:

>On May 19, 2003 at 23:46:58, Will Singleton wrote:
>
>>I was trying to figure out why my latest build doesn't do quite as well on
>>ecm86, and I ran Ruffian on it.  To my surprise, Ruffian couldn't solve it, even
>>given 5 minutes.  This is odd, since most other progs can do it in less than 10
>>seconds.  (What I take away from this exercise is that my program must now be
>>stronger.  Otherwise, I'd have to work on the problem, which is much less
>>interesting than testing new ideas.)
>>
>>[D]2r3k1/1nqbrp2/p5pp/1p1Pp1N1/8/1P5P/P1B2PP1/2RQR1K1 w - -
>
>I would assume then (from running Green Light), that Nxf7 is the correct move
>here?
>
>The PV is interesting as it contains 9 captures in a row at the start of the PV.
> Maybe ruffian is pruning if there are more than a certain number of captures in
>a row (as this is very unlikely to be a good thing).
>
>Cheers, Tim.
>
>Analysis:  GLC3.00, AXP 1.47GHz, 24MB Hash:
>
> Game stage: Middle game
> Current eval: 0.564
> Ply   Time   Score   Nodes  Principal variation
>  4   0.000  +0.743    5646  Ne4 Qb6 2. Qd2 g5
>  5   0.010  +0.592   13917  Ne4 Nd6 2. Nf6+ Kg7 3. Qf3 Kh8
>  5   0.020  +0.592   21231  Ne4 Nd6 2. Nf6+ Kg7 3. Qf3 Kh8
>  6   0.060  +0.702   54001  Ne4 Qb6 2. Qd2 g5 3. Qb4 Nc5
>  6   0.070  +0.702   66151  Ne4 Qb6 2. Qd2 g5 3. Qb4 Nc5
>  7   0.200  +0.709  159535  Ne4 Qb6 2. Bd3 Ree8 3. Qd2 g5 4. Nc3
>  7   0.310  +1.102  263663  Nxf7 {++} Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+
>                               Kxf7 5. Rxc1
>  7   0.360  +1.745  307058  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1
>  7   0.370  +1.745  316180  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1
>  8   0.440  +1.345  388531  Nxf7 {--} Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+
>                               Kxf7 5. Rxc1 Nd6
>  8   0.530  +1.186  460490  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6
>  8   0.580  +1.186  527044  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6
>  9   0.841  +1.259  749293  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7
>  9   1.081  +1.259  966741  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7
> 10   1.712  +1.299 1514631  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke7
> 10   2.093  +1.299 1853467  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke7
> 11   3.985  +1.340 3477228  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke7 7. g4
> 11   5.377  +1.340 4753269  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke7 7. g4
> 12   8.251  +1.405 7132424  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8
> 12  11.666  +1.405  10151k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8
> 13  19.798  +1.603  16605k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8 8. Rc7
> 13  25.416  +1.603  21432k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8 8. Rc7
> 14  40.958  +1.591  33530k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8 8. Rh7 Nf7
> 14  58.534  +1.591  49298k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8 8. Rh7 Nf7
> 15 1:50.67  +1.731  89853k  Nxf7 Rxf7 2. Bxg6 Qxc1 3. Qxc1 Rxc1 4. Bxf7+ Kxf7
>                               5. Rxc1 Nd6 6. Rc7 Ke8 7. Ra7 Bc8 8. Rh7 Nf7 9.
>                               Rg7
>

Tim,

Interesting.  Your line shows a transition to a fairly even endgame, yet GLC
doesn't see it until the moves are played through.  Perhaps the problem some
engines have here is going from middle to endgame.  Could be like Tony said, a
reliance on preprocessing sets up middlegame parameters that aren't valid at the
end of the pv.  Or it could be simply a bug, something that prevents the endgame
phase from being fully triggered during the search.

At least I know why mine takes a bit longer now.  It takes more time to see the
proper pv (not recapturing with the queen), because I reworked my pawn hash to
include the endgame parameter.

Will



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