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Subject: Re: Unnecessary Underpromotions

Author: Ulrich Tuerke

Date: 01:57:38 05/23/03

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On May 22, 2003 at 12:11:33, José Carlos wrote:

>On May 22, 2003 at 11:42:45, Ulrich Tuerke wrote:
>
>>On May 22, 2003 at 11:16:18, David H. McClain wrote:
>>
>>>On May 22, 2003 at 08:41:56, Ulrich Tuerke wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 22, 2003 at 06:08:47, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 22, 2003 at 01:01:38, Robin Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Often programs will underpromote a pawn in situations where they think capturing
>>>>>>the (under)promoted piece is still the best reply. Can anyone give an example
>>>>>>from an actual game where this underspromotion cost the computer a 1/2 point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Robin
>>>>>
>>>>>  I can't recall any game with this problem, but it's really easy to fix. I
>>>>>simply order the promotions so that promoting to queen gets searched first.
>>>>
>>>>Isn't everybody doing this anyway ?
>>>>Uli
>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>>all the other underpromotions will return alpha and thus ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>>  José C.
>>>
>>>Jose,
>>>
>>>No, everyone is not doing this.  At least I am not.   Admittedly I have played
>>>only one game where an underpromotion was an absolute necessity to regain tempo
>>>and obtain a "check" to prevent a checkmate to the other side. This was to a
>>>knight promotion rather than a Queen.  And the game was eventually won with the
>>>knight promotion.  I'm sure others have witnessed this on occasion also.
>>>
>>>Don't ask me to find and post this game.  I don't know where or if I have it but
>>>I simply regarded it as "the program knows best" and let it go at that.  The
>>>program was correct..........
>>
>>I don't think that we are talking about omitting under-promotions but about
>>move-ordering solely.
>>
>>When generating moves in full search, I sort promotions like
>>
>>1. queen
>>2. knight
>>3. rook
>>4. bishop
>>
>>That's because rook or bishop promotions will only very rarely generate a cut in
>>a case where the queen doesn't. Usually, the queen will do anyway.
>>
>>However, the knight may be a serious alternative to a queen promotion.
>>Therefore, I prefer it to rook and bishop.
>>
>>This way, you can't miss a win by knight promotion.
>>
>>In quies search, I omit (3) and (4).
>>
>>Uli
>
>  I recently implemented ignoring underpomotions in quies, because I read it in
>Ed's page (haven't figured it out myself before) and though about, as you do,
>try knight promotions (Ed doesn't). The problem is finding positions to test it.
>  I think (haven't tested) that the need of underpromotions to knight in quies
>must be so rare in real life that Ed's approach should be better. Have you
>tested with and without?

No, I haven't even read Ed's suggestions. I have not been busy with chess
programming for some time now.
I guess, it's rather a tiny effect: perhaps you miss to solve one position out
of thousands, and you save 1 per-mille of nodes. -:)

Uli


>
>  José C.



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