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Subject: Re: Junior 5 engine - is speed all?

Author: blass uri

Date: 10:01:27 10/17/98

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On October 17, 1998 at 12:37:37, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On October 17, 1998 at 05:23:04, blass uri wrote:
>
>>
>>On October 17, 1998 at 04:57:00, Alessio Iacovoni wrote:
>>
>>>Gambisoft posts:
>>>
>>>"Customers report unisono that JUNIOR 5 runs at top speed. We can
>>>confirm this. With 350 MHz the search depth starts double digit most
>>>of the time!"
>>>
>>>Results of the engine seem to support the claim that it is a very strong engine.
>>>However, when running it against Fritz 5 and especially Hiarcs on Junior
>>>platform I've got the impression that, fast as it may be, it is not intelligent
>>>enough... sometimes it seems to make moves that not even a patzer would make.
>>
>>There are positions that every program does sometime moves that not even a
>>patzer would make.
>>
>>I assume that you are talking about positions that Junior5 does mistakes and
>>other programs do not do mistakes.
>>
>>Can you post some positions that you are talking about?
>>
>>I assume that you are talking about the early stage of the opening.
>>It usually does not cause Junior problems against computers because usually
>>Junior is in book in these positions.
>>
>>>
>>>It may go 2 or 3 plies ahead of Crafty or Fritz.. but at the detriment of
>>>position and basic chess rules.
>>
>>The depth of Junior5 is not the number of plies.
>>
>>The depth is something close to the number of captures+the number of threat
>>moves+2*the number of regular moves.
>>
>>I do not think that it is tactically stronger than fritz5(The reason that it has
>>good results against computers is mainly positional reason).
>>
>>Uri
>
>The search depth is not a good indication of a program's strength.
>
>For example I know several small changes (generally 1 or 2 lines of code
>changes) that give Tiger one more ply in depth, or even 2 plies more.
>
>Very impressive when you look at the main lines on the screen. You have the
>impression that this version is going to smoke any other program.
>
>But when you try to prove it by playing a lot of real games, you just realize
>that the program does not play better. Or even worse, that you have lost some
>strength in the process.
>
>So every programmer has to make choices in this field. The only thing I'm
>looking for is strength. The resulting average search depth is just a "side
>effect" of these optimizations, and sometimes a better version is a version that
>searches less deep. This has been the case when I switched from Tiger 11.3 to
>Tiger 11.4.
>
>Amir has a strong program that seems to search very deep.

I am not sure about "seem to search very deep"
If this was the case It was a better solver than other program and I do not see
that it is better in tactics than other top programs.

I explained that the depth of Junior5 is not the depth of other programs

The depth is something close to the number of captures+the number of threat
moves+2*the number of regular moves and it is not the case in other programs.

I did not say that it is important to have a fast searcher that search deeper.
I simply replied someone who said that Junior can see more plies than fritz or
crafty.

Uri

> The same strength can
>also be achieved by a program with a shallower search. It's just a question of
>tuning.
>
>In the computer area, and especially in the computer chess area, you can achieve
>the same goal by different paths. Take a look at CSTal for example.
>
>
>
>    Christophe



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