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Subject: Re: Weird position? You make the call!

Author: Joachim Rang

Date: 15:26:40 05/28/03

Go up one level in this thread


On May 28, 2003 at 17:28:46, John Merlino wrote:

>This position is one that was posted many months ago, in which several programs
>were able to find Rxh5, and a couple of them were able to announce mate (in 12
>moves or so). CM9000, however, found Qxf4! in less than 20 seconds on a P3-750,
>and announced Mate in 10.
>
>[D]4r1k1/qp1r1p2/2pb1Bp1/p6p/2PP1n1R/1P3P2/P4P2/2Q2K1R w
>
>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>0:00	1/3	-1.80	2438		1.Rxf4 Bxf4 2.Qxf4 Re6 3.Be5 b6
>0:00	1/4	-1.26	7609		1.Rxf4 Bxf4 2.Qxf4 Re6 3.Be5 Kh7
>					4.Qg5
>0:00	1/5	-1.26	24204		1.Rxf4 Bxf4 2.Qxf4 Re6 3.Be5 Kh7
>					4.Qg5
>0:01	1/6	-1.43	107926		1.Rxf4 Re6 2.Rf5 Rxf6 3.Rxf6 Qxd4
>					4.Qg5 Be5
>0:01	1/6	1.34	140417		1.Rxh5 gxh5 2.Qxf4 Re1+ 3.Kxe1
>					Re7+ 4.Be5 Bxe5 5.Qg5+ Kf8 6.dxe5
>0:02	1/7	2.28	201244		1.Rxh5 gxh5 2.Qxf4 Re1+ 3.Kxe1
>					Re7+ 4.Be5 Bxe5 5.dxe5 Rd7 6.Qg5+
>					Kf8 7.Rxh5
>0:07	1/8	9.09	709292		1.Rxh5 gxh5 2.Qxf4 Re1+ 3.Kxe1
>					Re7+ 4.Kf1 Re1+ 5.Kxe1 Bb4+ 6.Kf1
>					Kf8 7.Rxh5
>0:11	1/8	13.43	1045981		1.Qxf4 Re1+ 2.Kxe1 Bxf4 3.Rxh5
>					Re7+ 4.Kf1 Re1+ 5.Kxe1 Bd2+ 6.Kxd2
>					gxh5 7.Rxh5 Qxd4+ 8.Bxd4 Kf8 9.Rxa5
>					Ke7
>0:19	1/9	Mate10	1996510		1.Qxf4 Re1+ 2.Kg2 Rg1+ 3.Kxg1 Qc5
>					4.Rxh5 gxh5 5.Qh6 Qg5+ 6.Qxg5+
>					Kf8 7.Qg8+ Kxg8 8.Rxh5 Bh2+ 9.Rxh2
>					Kf8 10.Rh8#
>0:19	1/10	Mate10	2090834		1.Qxf4 Re1+ 2.Kg2 Rg1+ 3.Kxg1 Qc5
>					4.Rxh5 gxh5 5.Qh6 Qg5+ 6.Qxg5+
>					Kf8 7.Qg8+ Kxg8 8.Rxh5 Bh2+ 9.Rxh2
>					Kf8 10.Rh8#
>0:21	2/11	Mate10	2337348		1.Qxf4 Re1+ 2.Kg2 Rg1+ 3.Kxg1 Qc5
>					4.Rxh5 gxh5 5.Qh6 Qg5+ 6.Qxg5+
>					Kf8 7.Qg8+ Kxg8 8.Rxh5 Bh2+ 9.Rxh2
>					Kf8 10.Rh8#
>


Shredder 7.04 finds Qxf4 also very quick but does not announce mate.

>So, just for fun, I wondered what the situation would be if it were Black to
>move in this position.
>
>[D]4r1k1/qp1r1p2/2pb1Bp1/p6p/2PP1n1R/1P3P2/P4P2/2Q2K1R b
>
>And I discovered that, at least for The King, finding the relatively obvious (at
>least for a patzer like me) move Re6 is much more difficult than I thought it
>would be. Instead, The King plays with odd moves like Rde7(??), causing a big
>fail low that takes almost three minutes to finally resolve to Re6 on a P3-750.
>
>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>0:00	1/3	-3.66	1522		1...Qb8 2.Bg5 Nd3 3.Qd2
>0:00	1/4	-3.88	5172		1...Qb8 2.Bg5 Nd3 3.Qd2 Re1+ 4.Kg2
>0:00	1/5	-3.70	20612		1...Qb8 2.Rxh5 gxh5 3.Rxh5 Re1+
>					4.Kxe1 Qe8+ 5.Kf1 Qe2+ 6.Kg1 Nxh5
>					7.Qg5+ Kf8 8.Qxh5
>0:00	1/6	-3.70	77068		1...Qb8 2.Rxh5 gxh5 3.Rxh5 Re1+
>					4.Kxe1 Qe8+ 5.Kf1 Qe2+ 6.Kg1 Nxh5
>					7.Qg5+ Kf8 8.Qxh5
>0:02	1/7	1.06	201524		1...Qb8 2.Qxf4 Bxf4 3.Rxh5 gxh5
>					4.Rxh5 Re1+ 5.Kxe1 Re7+ 6.Kf1 Re1+
>					7.Kxe1 Bd2+ 8.Kf1 Bh6 9.Rxh6
>0:08	1/7	0.85	720744		1...a4 2.Qxf4 Bxf4 3.Rxh5 gxh5
>					4.Rxh5 Re1+ 5.Kxe1 Re7+ 6.Kf1 Re1+
>					7.Kxe1 Bh6 8.Rxh6 Qa5+ 9.Kf1
>0:09	1/7	-2.38	777717		1...Rde7 2.Bxe7 Qxd4 3.Rxf4 Bxf4
>					4.Qe1 b5
>0:12	1/8	-2.86	1048763		1...Rde7 2.Bxe7 Qxd4 3.Rxf4 Bxf4
>					4.Qa3 Qe5 5.Bc5
>0:33	1/9	9.90	3020660		1...Rde7 2.Qxf4 Re1+ 3.Kg2 Qxd4
>					4.Qxd4 Rxh1 5.Rxh1 Re6 6.Rd1 b5
>0:38	1/9	4.53	3499540		1...Rdd8 2.Qxf4 Re1+ 3.Kxe1 Re8+
>					4.Be5 Bxe5 5.dxe5 Qc5 6.Kf1 Rxe5
>					7.Qf6
>2:39	1/9	-1.30	13758757	1...Re2 2.Rxf4 Re6 3.d5 cxd5 4.cxd5
>					Rc7 5.Qb2 Qa6+ 6.Kg2 Bxf4 7.dxe6
>					Qxe6
>2:45	1/9	-2.09	14425940	1...Re6 2.Rxf4 Bxf4 3.Qxf4 a4 4.bxa4
>					Rxf6 5.Qxf6 Rxd4 6.Rh4 Rd2 7.Rh2
>					Qxa4
>2:59	1/10	-1.83	15767820	1...Re6 2.Rxf4 Bxf4 3.Qxf4 Qa8
>					4.Kg2 b6 5.Qg5 Qe8 6.d5 cxd5 7.cxd5
>
>
>Do any other programs have this "problem"? Is it a "problem" at all, or is it
>actually a good test position with Black to move?
>
>jm

Shredder 7.04 does even worse! I think it's a good testposition. Shredder 7.04
findes Re6 at depth 13 after 4:33 on a P4 1.6 GHz (!):


Engine: Shredder 7
von Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

  8/22	 0:01 	+5.74 	1...Db8 2.Da1 Te6 3.Lg5 f6 4.d5 cxd5 5.Lxf4 Lxf4 6.cxd5
Txd5 (236.644) 187.0
  9/22	 0:02 	+5.65 	1...Db8 2.Lg5 Se2 3.Db2 Le7 4.Lxe7 Tdxe7 5.Dd2 Dd6 6.Kg2
(488.805) 196.7
 10/26	 0:03 	+5.40--	1...Db8 2.Txh5 gxh5 3.Txh5 Sxh5 4.Dg5+ Kf8 (746.501) 199.9
 10/26	 0:03 	+4.90--	1...Db8 2.Txh5 gxh5 3.Txh5 Te2 4.Th8+ (783.749) 200.6
 10/30	 0:05 	+4.02 	1...Db8 2.Txh5 gxh5 3.Txh5 Te1+ 4.Kxe1 De8+ 5.Kf1 De2+
6.Kg1 Sxh5 7.Dg5+ Kf8 8.Dxh5 Ke8 9.Dh8+ Lf8 10.Lg7 De1+ 11.Kg2 (1.221.898) 210.2
 11/33	 0:12 	+4.02 	1...Db8 2.Txh5 gxh5 3.Txh5 Te1+ 4.Kxe1 De8+ 5.Kf1 De2+
6.Kg1 Sxh5 7.Dg5+ Kf8 8.Dxh5 Ke8 9.Dh8+ Lf8 10.Lg7 De1+ 11.Kg2 (2.522.942) 207.0
 12/31	 0:20 	+3.77--	1...Db8 2.Txh5 gxh5 3.Txh5 Te1+ 4.Kxe1 De8+ 5.Kf1 De2+
6.Kg1 Sxh5 7.Dg5+ Kf8 8.Dxh5 Ke8 9.Dh8+ Lf8 10.Lg7 Dxf3 11.Dxf8+ (4.076.982)
201.8
 12/35	 0:31 	+3.27--	1...Db8 2.c5 Te2 3.cxd6 Txf2+ 4.Kxf2 Sd3+ 5.Kg2 Sxc1
6.Txh5 gxh5 7.Txh5 Dxd6 8.Th8+ (6.498.654) 204.8
 12/35	 1:31 	+2.52 	1...Db8 2.c5 Te6 3.cxd6 Txf6 4.Txf4 Dxd6 5.Te4 Te6 6.Thh4
Txe4 7.Txe4 Te7 8.Dh6 Txe4 9.fxe4 Dxd4 (18.393.717) 200.0
 12/35	 1:35 	+2.53++	1...Tde7 2.Lxe7 Dxd4 3.Txf4 Lxf4 4.Kg2 (19.191.046) 200.3
 12/35	 1:36 	+2.88++	1...Tde7 2.Lxe7 Dxd4 3.Txf4 Lxf4 4.Kg2 Lxc1 5.Txh5
(19.400.940) 200.7
 12/37	 2:10 	+5.63 	1...Tde7 2.Lxe7 Dxd4 3.Txf4 Lxf4 4.Da3 De5 5.Th4 g5 6.Txh5
Txe7 7.Kg2 b6 8.Th6 f6 9.Db2 Dxb2 10.Th8+ (26.370.201) 201.6
 13/37	 2:34 	+5.38--	1...Tde7 2.Dxf4 Lxf4 3.Txh5 Te1+ 4.Kg2 Lh6 5.Txh6 Txh1
6.Txh1 Dxd4 7.Lxd4 b5 8.cxb5 cxb5 (31.186.395) 201.8
 13/37	 2:42 	+4.88--	1...Tde7 2.Dxf4 Lxf4 3.Txh5 Te1+ 4.Kg2 Lh6 5.Txh6 Txh1
6.Txh1 b6 7.Th8+ (32.919.547) 202.3
 13/37	 3:37 	-11.07	1...Tde7 2.Dxf4 Te1+ 3.Kg2 Dxd4 4.Txe1 Txe1 5.Dxd4 Te6
6.Te4 c5 7.Dc3 b6 8.Txe6 fxe6 9.Dd3 (43.765.544) 201.5
 13/37	 3:37 	-11.06++	1...Db8 2.c5 (43.806.896) 201.5
 13/37	 3:38 	-10.71++	1...Db8 2.c5 Lxc5 3.dxc5 Te2 4.Dxf4 Dxf4 5.Txf4 Tdd2
6.Kg1 (44.009.506) 201.2
 13/37	 4:25 	+2.41 	1...Db8 2.c5 Te6 3.cxd6 Txf6 4.Txf4 Tfxd6 5.De3 a4 6.bxa4
Da8 (53.223.095) 200.0
 13/37	 4:33 	+2.42++	1...Te6 2.Txf4 Lxf4 3.Dxf4 a4 4.bxa4 (54.727.272) 200.1
 13/37	 5:01 	+2.71 	1...Te6 2.Txf4 a4 3.d5 Lxf4 4.dxe6 Dxf2+ 5.Kxf2 Td2+ 6.Dxd2
Lg3+ 7.Kxg3 (60.168.109) 199.5
 14/38	 7:14 	+2.59 	1...Te6 2.Txf4 Lxf4 3.Dxf4 a4 4.bxa4 Txf6 5.Dxf6 Dxd4 6.Dh4
Dc5 7.Df4 Td1+ 8.Kg2 Txh1 9.Db8+ Df8 (85.894.884) 197.8




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