Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:18:17 10/19/98
Go up one level in this thread
On October 19, 1998 at 19:05:53, blass uri wrote: > >On October 19, 1998 at 18:12:40, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 19, 1998 at 17:22:10, blass uri wrote: >> >>> >>>On October 19, 1998 at 16:18:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 19, 1998 at 12:03:15, blass uri wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>On October 19, 1998 at 10:14:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 18, 1998 at 14:25:23, blass uri wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On October 18, 1998 at 13:41:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On October 18, 1998 at 12:13:34, Alessio Iacovoni wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>1) Shouldn't computer strenght it rather be measured on "average" entry-level >>>>>>>>>computers.. i.e. the ones actually used by the majority of people? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>2) Also.. do programs benefit in the same way from higher speed and increased >>>>>>>>>hash tables? If not, tests would not be comparable, therefore useless. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>3) Why are books used in tests? Shouldn't a top level computer program be >>>>>>>>>capable of doing at least decently in the opening phase *without* resorting to >>>>>>>>>it's book? If the answer is no.. then it could be easily beaten by even >>>>>>>>>lower-performing computers by having it systematically go out of book. Or am I >>>>>>>>>wrong? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Computers would do just as well without a book as a human that had *never*seen >>>>>>>>an opening book. And I'd bet the human would fall into many of the same sorts >>>>>>>>of "traps" that the computer would. But even worse, the computer would tend >>>>>>>>to play the same opening every time, since the tree search is deterministic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There are some variable in the evaluation function that you can decide that they >>>>>>>will not be constants >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For example suppose you have a positional bonus for a pawn in the 5th rank of >>>>>>>0.2 pawn. >>>>>>>You can decide that the positional bonus will be different(0.23 pawn or 0.17 >>>>>>>pawn) >>>>>>>You can decide before every move to change the positional bonuses by a small >>>>>>>random number and it may cause the program not to play the same opening every >>>>>>>time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sure... but it can also make it play *weaker* in addition to playing more >>>>>>random... >>>>> >>>>>I do not think that more than 20 elo weaker if you change only by a small >>>>>number(every positional bonus will not be changed by more than 0.03 pawn). >>>>> >>>>>I do not think that the positional bonuses are optimal(I think that noone knows >>>>>and by doing games you can get get closer to optimal) >>>>>Another problem is that the optimal bonuses for Blitz may be different from the >>>>>optimal bonuses for slower time control. >>>>> >>>>>I think that for slower time control it may be better to increase the positional >>>>>bonuses but I am not sure about it. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>The problem is that "20 Elo" is misleading. When you are talking about >>>>computer vs computer matches. A small change in one program often produces >>>>a big change in the match results, because that becomes the *only* thing that >>>>separates the programs... IE If I test two crafty versions that are identical, >>>>but let one use 1 cpu and the other use 2 cpus, I get huge margins of victory >>>>with 2 cpus, yet when I play that same test match against humans, the two cpu >>>>version will score somewhat better but not nearly so much as the crafty vs >>>>crafty match suggested... >>> >>>I think that there is also a difference between crafty vs crafty matches and >>>crafty vs other programs matches. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >> >>I'm not sure I understand your comment, because obviously crafty and other >>programs are different. But I try to tune the eval terms to play the best >>chess I can make it play. Adding random "fuzz" will only weaken it, not >>help it... > >A programmer may play many games against crafty without telling you and do an >opening book from the lines that the program won. > >If you add random "fuzz" then you can escape from the opening preparation. > >Uri Or I use a different book when I play in real tournaments... :) Been there, done that, *not* doing it tomorrow. :)
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