Author: Uri Blass
Date: 16:12:05 06/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On June 16, 2003 at 18:49:56, Marc van Hal wrote: >On June 16, 2003 at 17:42:04, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On June 16, 2003 at 17:10:44, Marc van Hal wrote: >> >>>r4rk1/p5pp/1p1ppn2/3b4/1P1Pnq2/P4N2/1BQ1BPPP/2R2RK1 b - - 1 1 >>> >>>Find a clear win for Black. >>>This is pointed at the diference in tactics between nulmove and normal search >>>So sory John this time you are not invited. >>>Or you might provide them the answer. >>> >>>Marc >> >>I do not understand what has John to do with null move pruning. >> >>shredder7.04(p85) can only see a clear advantage for black but not a clear win >>in 15 minutes >> >>New game >>[D]r4rk1/p5pp/1p1ppn2/3b4/1P1Pnq2/P4N2/1BQ1BPPP/2R2RK1 b - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Shredder 7.04: >> >>1...Rac8 2.Qxc8 Rxc8 3.Rxc8+ Ne8 >> ± (0.91) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >>1...Rac8 2.Qxc8 Rxc8 3.Rxc8+ Kf7 >> ± (1.01) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 >> ² (0.28) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 >> ³ (-0.56) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 >> ³ (-0.56) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.Rce1 >> µ (-0.76) Depth: 2/10 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.Bd3 Rad8 >> µ (-0.72) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.Bc4 Ng5 3.g3 >> µ (-0.97) Depth: 4/16 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 >> µ (-1.04) Depth: 4/16 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 >> µ (-1.04) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 >> µ (-1.04) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 26kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Be4 >> µ (-1.11) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 58kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qg4 5.hxg4 >> µ (-0.86) Depth: 8/20 00:00:00 114kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qg5 >> µ (-0.86) Depth: 8/20 00:00:01 158kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Be4 5.Qc7 Qd2 >> µ (-0.72) Depth: 9/22 00:00:02 328kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qg5 5.Qc7 Qd2 >> ³ (-0.62) Depth: 10/24 00:00:05 748kN >>1...Rad8 2.Ba6 Ng4 3.h3 Ng5 4.Kh1 Bxf3 5.Qxh7+ Kxh7 >> ³ (-0.63) Depth: 10/27 00:00:15 2227kN >>1...Rad8 2.h3 Ng5 3.Nxg5 Qxg5 4.f3 Qg3 5.Bd3 Rf7 6.Qf2 g6 7.Qxg3 >> ³ (-0.64) Depth: 10/27 00:00:16 2469kN >>1...Kh8 2.Ba6 Ng4 3.h3 Ng5 4.Nxg5 Qh2# >> ³ (-0.65) Depth: 10/27 00:00:28 4231kN >>1...Kh8 2.h3 Ng5 3.Nxg5 Qxg5 4.f3 a5 5.bxa5 Rxa5 6.Bd3 Qe3+ 7.Kh2 Ng4+ 8.hxg4 >>Qg1+ >> ³ (-0.65) Depth: 10/27 00:00:30 4530kN >>1...Kh8 2.Bd1 Rf7 3.Rb1 Bb7 4.Qc1 Qf5 5.Be2 Raf8 6.Nh4 >> ³ (-0.63) Depth: 11/30 00:00:51 7659kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qg5 5.Kg1 Rxf3 6.Qc8+ Rxc8 >> ³ (-0.64) Depth: 11/30 00:01:00 8704kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Bd3 Bxf3 6.Qc8 Raxc8 7.Bxh7+ Kxh7 >> µ (-0.99) Depth: 11/30 00:01:03 9009kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Kf1 Rf6 6.Qc7 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Rf7 >> µ (-1.07) Depth: 11/30 00:01:17 11035kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Kf1 Rf6 6.Qc7 Bxf3 7.Ke1 Qxg2 >> µ (-1.32) Depth: 12/30 00:01:31 13103kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Qd2 Rf5 6.Qe3 Raf8 7.Kf1 R5f6 8.Rc7 >>Rxf3+ 9.gxf3 Rxf3+ 10.Bxf3 >> µ (-1.32) Depth: 12/34 00:01:54 16335kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Qd2 Rf6 6.Qe1 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Raf8 >> -+ (-1.50) Depth: 13/38 00:03:07 26366kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Kf1 Rf6 6.Qd3 Raf8 7.Qe3 Bxf3 8.gxf3 >>Qh1+ 9.Qg1 Rxf3+ 10.Bxf3 >> -+ (-1.43) Depth: 14/38 00:05:27 48195kN >>1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Kf1 Rf6 6.Qd3 Raf8 7.Qe3 Qg3 8.Qf2 >>Qg6 >> µ (-1.19) Depth: 15/41 00:11:21 97158kN >> >>(, eim 17.06.2003) > >Fritz8 and Junior8 do NOT play Ng4 > >Infact after Ng4 h3 they only candidate Nf6 or Nh6 >And evaluate the postion as equal after 3 Nxf2 >And that is why I call it a nullmove problem > > Chessmaster does play Ng4 >There for I said Jhon didn't have to join >Have you actualy looked at the postion After 5 Rf6 or better 7. Qe3? >If you would contineu to play this against a GM he might feel offended. >Like a full piece up in a totaly save postion is not enough to win these days. >But the postion is won in all postions which can arise after the knight capture >on f2 and that is why I call it tactical game play not epd test postions. > > >Marc Shredder considers Ng4 as a positional decision The score is even less than +1 for black when I search one ply deeper and I do not like 5...a5 in the pv. New game r4rk1/p5pp/1p1ppn2/3b4/1P1Pnq2/P4N2/1BQ1BPPP/2R2RK1 b - - 0 1 1...Ng4 2.h3 Ngxf2 3.Rxf2 Nxf2 4.Kxf2 Qh2 5.Kf1 a5 6.Qc3 axb4 7.Qxb4 Ra7 8.Qe1 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Rxf3+ µ (-0.95) Depth: 16/44 00:29:38 257181kN (, eim 17.06.2003) When I give it the position after Kf1 It likes Rf4 and analysis after 5...Rf6 shows even start by showing smaller advantage and needs depth 14 to fail low. New game [D]r4rk1/p5pp/1p1pp3/3b4/1P1P4/P4N1P/1BQ1B1Pq/2R2K2 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 5...a5 6.Qc3 Rf5 7.bxa5 bxa5 8.Bc4 µ (-0.93) Depth: 11/14 00:00:07 1062kN 5...a5 6.Qc3 Rf5 7.bxa5 µ (-0.93) Depth: 12/18 00:00:18 3056kN 5...a5 6.Qc3 Rae8 7.Qc7 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Qxh3+ 9.Ke1 Qg3+ 10.Kd1 Qg1+ 11.Kd2 Qg5+ 12.Kd1 Qg1+ 13.Kd2 Qg5+ 14.Kd1 Qg1+ 15.Kd2 µ (-0.84) Depth: 13/36 00:03:23 33254kN 5...Rf4 6.Bc4 Bxf3 7.Bxe6+ Kh8 8.gxf3 Rxf3+ 9.Ke1 Qh1+ 10.Kd2 Rf2+ 11.Kc3 Rxc2+ 12.Kb3 Rxc1 13.d5 µ (-0.85) Depth: 13/36 00:03:50 37804kN 5...Rf4 6.Qc3 Raf8 7.Qe3 Re4 8.Qd3 Qg3 9.Qd2 Ref4 µ (-0.88) Depth: 13/36 00:04:14 42008kN 5...Rf4 6.Qc3 Raf8 7.Qe3 Re4 8.Qd3 Qg3 9.Rc3 Kh8 10.Qa6 Rxd4 µ (-0.95) Depth: 14/36 00:06:12 62151kN (, eim 17.06.2003) New game [D]r5k1/p5pp/1p1ppr2/3b4/1P1P4/P4N1P/1BQ1B1Pq/2R2K2 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 6.Qd3 Raf8 7.Qe3 Rg6 8.Ke1 Rxg2 9.Nxh2 Rxe2+ 10.Kxe2 Bc4+ 11.Rxc4 µ (-1.13) Depth: 9/25 00:00:03 527kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Rxf3+ 9.Kxf3 Qxg2+ 10.Qxg2 g6 µ (-1.12) Depth: 9/25 00:00:03 559kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Rxf3+ 9.Kxf3 Qxg2+ 10.Qxg2 g6 11.Qf2 Rf8+ 12.Ke3 µ (-0.77) Depth: 9/26 00:00:06 1045kN 6.Bd1 Raf8 7.Qf2 a5 8.bxa5 bxa5 9.Be2 Bxf3 10.Qg3 Qxg3 µ (-0.77) Depth: 9/27 00:00:09 1495kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Rxf3+ 9.Kxf3 Qh2 10.Qe4 Rf8+ 11.Ke2 Qg3 12.Rf1 Rxf1 13.Kxf1 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 ³ (-0.60) Depth: 10/29 00:00:15 2547kN 6.Bd1 Raf8 7.Qf2 R6f7 8.Ke1 Qf4 ³ (-0.55) Depth: 11/33 00:00:31 5232kN 6.Bd1 Raf8 7.Qf2 a5 8.bxa5 bxa5 9.Be2 Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Rf4 11.Ke1 d5 12.a4 R8f7 13.Kd2 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 12/33 00:01:07 11556kN 6.Bd1 Raf8 7.Qf2 R6f7 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qf4 10.Kg1 a5 ³ (-0.41) Depth: 13/34 00:02:22 24572kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Raf8 8.Qxh7+ Kxh7 9.Bc2+ g6 10.Rxh1 Bxf3 11.a4 Rc8 12.a5 ³ (-0.66) Depth: 14/39 00:03:52 39263kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Raf8 8.Qxh7+ Kxh7 9.Bc2+ g6 10.Rxh1 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Rxf3+ µ (-1.16) Depth: 14/39 00:04:01 40712kN 6.Bd1 Qh1+ 7.Kf2 Raf8 8.Qd3 Qh2 9.Rc2 Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Rxf3+ 11.Qxf3 Rxf3+ 12.Kxf3 h5 13.Rc8+ Kh7 14.Bc3 Qg1 15.Rc7 Qf1+ -+ (-2.86) Depth: 14/43 00:05:59 60824kN (, eim 17.06.2003) Uri
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