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Subject: Re: Ooops

Author: Tom Kerrigan

Date: 10:27:27 06/18/03

Go up one level in this thread


On June 17, 2003 at 20:43:27, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On June 17, 2003 at 13:40:19, Tom Kerrigan wrote:
>
>>On June 17, 2003 at 13:15:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On June 16, 2003 at 23:46:15, Keith Evans wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 16, 2003 at 23:23:41, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 16, 2003 at 02:50:49, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On June 14, 2003 at 18:00:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On June 13, 2003 at 12:03:58, Michael Vox wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.clubkasparov.ru/521772350.html?462691585533321
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>One could argue chess endgame tablebases play the endgame like god, but not this
>>>>>>>>article....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Enjoy :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The author is an idiot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>a 5 piece endgame _counts_ the two kings.  He is not counting them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He really thinks he is probing what we would call a 7 piece ending, which
>>>>>>>is _years_ away from reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At no point in the article does he ever do as you allege. He always counts the
>>>>>>pieces correctly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We all make mistakes, but I don't think we should therefore brand all of
>>>>>>ourselves "idiots". Do you? He is a GM after all, so don't you think you calling
>>>>>>him an "idiot" a little extreme?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps "computer chess idiot" would have been better?
>>>>>
>>>>>His entire article is based on incorrect information.
>>>>>
>>>>>A 5 piece position is _always_ played perfectly by a program.  But when there
>>>>>are more than 5 pieces on the board, perfection goes away even when probing
>>>>>5 piece tables after captures.
>>>>>
>>>>>In his text, I get the impression he is saying position two should be played
>>>>>perfectly.  Yet it has _seven_ pieces on the board.  Tables work miracles,
>>>>>but they don't make the impossible possible, yet...
>>>>
>>>>Nevertheless for position 1, after 1.Bd1 Kg8 2.h7+ Kxh7 3.h6 Kg8 4.h7+ Kxh7 5.h5
>>>>Kg8 6.h6 Kh8 7.h7 Kxh7 there are only _five_ chessmen on the board. So if he has
>>>>tablebases enabled, then what _should_ the engines return? I don't have 5-men
>>>>tablebases available, so I don't know. Is his analysis incorrect, or is he
>>>>pointing out a bug or setup problem with Junior and Fritz?
>>>
>>>The problem is this:  If the position _starts_ off with 5 pieces, it will
>>>play _perfectly_.   If it starts off with more, it might not.  IE it might
>>
>>I don't know why this conversation is still going on. Bob, you're being an
>>idiot. The position in the diagram has 8 pieces, right? Then there's the
>>comment:
>>
>>"It's funny that even if we sweep away three white pawns, both engines evaluate
>>White's position as winning."
>>
>>Bob, can you please tell the audience what 8 - 3 is?
>>
>
>However, he is complaining about the _original_ position.  And when you "sweep

What makes you think that? He starts out with 8 pieces, gives a line that
removes 3 pieces, and says "Even though there are only five chesspieces on the
board..." Is it just an incredible coincidence that 8 - 3 = 5 and he refers to a
position with 5 pieces, although he must really mean 8 pieces? Sure, Bob.

-Tom



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