Author: Uri Blass
Date: 08:37:59 06/19/03
Go up one level in this thread
On June 19, 2003 at 11:20:20, georges alain wrote: >On June 19, 2003 at 04:12:27, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On June 19, 2003 at 03:33:57, georges alain wrote: >> >>>On June 18, 2003 at 08:34:51, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On June 18, 2003 at 08:24:43, georges alain wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 06:19:26, James T. Walker wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 05:51:38, georges alain wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 04:26:06, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 03:47:38, georges alain wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 02:06:35, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 18, 2003 at 01:46:51, Peter Hegger wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>On very fast hardware with todays best programs, how would those programs fare >>>>>>>>>>>in a round robin correspondence tournament playing exclusively against postal >>>>>>>>>>>GMs? >>>>>>>>>>>Even if they couldn't yet compete at this level, how far off is the day when >>>>>>>>>>>they are bona fide postal GM strength? >>>>>>>>>>>Opinions? >>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>Peter >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I believe that they can compete at this level. >>>>>>>>>>GM's in correspondence chess are players who played well in the past relative to >>>>>>>>>>their opponents. >>>>>>>>>>It tells me nothing about their level relative to computers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>GM's who got their rating not in the last years may be even weaker than >>>>>>>>>>computers because they did not use fast hardware to get their rating. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Not sure ! >>>>>>>>>Christophe Léotard, better French ELO by correspondence, pulverized on 4 parts >>>>>>>>>the softwares Hiarcs 7 and Chess Tiger 14 (+3=1-0). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The hardware was not fast hardware and I think that at least Hiarcs chose bad >>>>>>>>opening because of book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It is better if programs trust less the open library in that time control and >>>>>>>>leave the opening book earlier. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>" The more time of reflexion is reduced, the less the man can compete. By >>>>>>>>>correspondence, it is not rare to reflect 15 days on a position, to analyze >>>>>>>>>alternatives which go from the opening to the finale. In addition, the human >>>>>>>>>ones have a great advantage on the machines in the sense that their libraries of >>>>>>>>>opening are largely higher, as well qualitatively as quantitatively. It is far >>>>>>>>>from being the case with the clock. The world n°1 by correspondence, Timmerman, >>>>>>>>>is classified 2734. It is established that the best machines do not exceed 2100 >>>>>>>>>at rate correspondence, and I am perhaps still too generous." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Based on my experience it is not the case and I won a lot of 2500+ or 2400+ >>>>>>>>players based on mainly computer moves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Steve Ham played against computers and lost 2.5-1.5 and he also did not play >>>>>>>>against the best software and the best hardware of today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I expect 2600 player to beat 2100 player 4-0 in most of the cases so even the >>>>>>>>3.5-.5 suggests that the programs are more than 2100. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I do not understand french so I am not going to respond to the last comments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hello >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You are right if you speak about "chess with clock" but coresspondance chess are >>>>>>>very different: no time pressure, no tactics tricks, possibility to check your >>>>>>>opening line in an encyclopedia. or in database. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Look for exemple a the last game of the match Junior-Kasparov. >>>>>>>Kasparov was in a véry good position beut hard to win so he prefer to drawn the >>>>>>>game and the match. Do you really think that kasparov would have draw this game >>>>>>>in correspondance chess ? certainly not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>please excuse my poor english >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Phili >>>>>> >>>>>>But would this position arise in corrrespondence chess? You talk of how >>>>>>Kasparov would do better with more time but what about the computer? It's not >>>>>>going to do better also? Another thing. You talk about the best chess player >>>>>>in the world not just an ordinary GM. Why is it when people try to claim >>>>>>computers are not GM level they always want to compare the the #1 rated player >>>>>>when there are hundreds of GM players that computers beat easily. >>>>>>Jim >>>>> >>>>>hello >>>>>Computers don't do much better with more time , have you tried to replay the >>>>>games of this match on your computer ? I do, with a computer wich is a least 10 >>>>>x less faster, moves are often the same! . >>>> >>>> >>>>This is wrong. >>>> >>>>Computers do much better with more time. >>>> >>>>The ssdf list always have better rating with better hardware. >>>> >>>>I will start to believe that computers do not do much better with more time when >>>>Movei200 on P1000000 is going to get smaller ssdf rating than Movei200 on >>>>P500000 inspite of hardware that is 2 times faster thanks to a statistical >>>>error. >>>> >>>>Uri >>>I am very suspicious with ssdf list andd for testing program really I prefer >>>match with humans. More than 2700 Elo for shredder (or others)! well I have seen >>>moves made by shredder (or others) that even a GM with only 2500 Elo and two >>>liters of beer in stomac never play; >>>If you don't trust me please go to this : >>>http://ajec-echecs.org/articles/leotard2.php ( in this page click on >>>"Hiarcs-Léotard" ) >>> >>>and you will see what a coresspondence player which is not world champion and >>>only 2600 Elo can do to the poor Hiarcs 7 >> >>Hiarcs7 is a weak program relative to the programs of today and it was not >>optimized for long time control(maximal depth of 30 or 32 plies is a joke for >>correspondence games). >> >>I read that page in the past and it did not convince me. >> >>I have Hiarcs7.32 and I almost never used it for my correspondence games because >>it also had the problem of a branching factor of 6 or 7 at long time control and >>not only the problem of not search more than 30 or 32 plies even in the longest >>lines. >> >>Uri > >Ok the event takes place in 2000-2001 so he played of course with program >avalaible at that time, but if you have read this page you have seen that he win >also against Chess Tiger 14 which is still 2715 in SSDF list and in the "top >ten" (8) >To make myself understood i will say that the SSDF list is too imprecise. >Computer are very sharp in calculation over 2700 2800 who knows... But when >there >is no calculation as in in first kramnik's games in Bahrein they don't know what >to do and makes positionals mistakes. I think that it is dependent on the time control and I suspect that Fritz could avoid part of the mistakes at slower time control. Maybe not the decisive error but at least in one of the games it seems to me that the decisive error was played when Kramnik had already better position. >The ssdf list don't show this gap between tactical hability and positionnal >understanding >If the match of Bahrein was played by correspondence I bet my shirt on a human >victory 6-0 ( even with wih a human weaker than Kramnik) I doubt it. The french player failed to get 4-0 against Tiger and Hiarcs that are weaker than Fritz. Uri
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