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Subject: Re: By the way...

Author: Eugene Nalimov

Date: 19:50:59 06/26/03

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I didn't look at GCC sources, but I looked at sources of some other compilers,
and understand x86 and PPC architecture well enough, so I think I know that x86
and PPC backends should be vastly different, and each should contain lot of
platform-specific and unique code.

Thanks,
Eugene

On June 26, 2003 at 17:40:39, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On June 26, 2003 at 16:47:06, Eugene Nalimov wrote:
>
>>On June 26, 2003 at 16:11:42, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On June 25, 2003 at 13:20:46, Tom Kerrigan wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 25, 2003 at 04:52:12, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 25, 2003 at 03:55:03, Andreas Guettinger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Apple Hardware VP Defends Benchmarks:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/06/24/2154256.shtml?tid=126&tid=181
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll be darned.  An oinking weasel.
>>>>
>>>>It obviously doesn't pass the smell test when Apple's scores disagree with the
>>>>officially submitted SPEC scores so dramatically, even if the VP does try to
>>>>justify their testing methodology.
>>>>
>>>>The guy mentions that the PPC scores could have been higher if they had used a
>>>>different compiler? Uhhh, why didn't they do that and avoid this whole mess?
>>>>
>>>>-Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>His testing methodology was not _that_ bad.  He _did_ use the same compiler for
>>>both processors, which is certainly reasonable.
>>>
>>>Whether he used that specific compiler because it made the g5 look better is
>>>another issue, although it is doubtful that the gcc guys have got any great
>>>g5 customizations built in yet.
>>>
>>>One _could_ make a case for testing either way.  (a) using the same compiler;
>>>(b) using the _best_ compiler for each respective machine.
>>
>>By "the same compiler" you mean "the same front end?"
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Eugene
>
>Actually I was thinking more about the "back end".  IE emitting code and
>optimizing same.  The parsing and converting to some intermediate form is
>not that interesting from this perspective.  It's what happens after that
>that becomes "interesting".
>
>In the case of GCC, there is plenty of evidence that the optimizer guys
>do a lot of communicating, so that if one discovers a new trick, all the
>backenders use it if possible and applicable.  Vendors seem to be more
>protective of their "tricks" for reasons that must relate to software
>marketing rather than hardware marketing/performance.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>The classic problem with (b) is that humans are influencing the outcome in a
>>>big way, because you not only measure raw hardware performance, you measure how
>>>good the optimizing gurus are at their craft.  Either way is open to lots of
>>>criticism, unfortunately.
>>>
>>>SPEC is still going to be the best comparison since each vendor is free to
>>>use the fastest compiler and settings he can find, so long as the result
>>>produces correct and validated answers.  The "gurus" still count, of course,
>>>but absolute is absolute.



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