Author: Uri Blass
Date: 02:08:10 06/27/03
Go up one level in this thread
On June 27, 2003 at 00:48:25, Slater Wold wrote: >On June 26, 2003 at 17:54:35, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: > >>[D]3rr3/6k1/2p3P1/1p2nP1p/pP2p1P1/P1B1Nb1B/2P2K2/5R2 b >>In the above diagram Deeper Blue made a huge mistake by playing 39...Kh6 and >>lost.Commercial programs do not play this move but choose 39...h4 which draws. >>Amazingly no annotation to this game mentions this as the loosing mistake ;but >>they concentrate on moves like 34...Qxf1+ as mistakes.I Let Chessmaster 9000 >>at 1.8 GHZ play both sides at 999 seconds per move for both sides after 39...h4 >>and the result is a draw.Amazingly 39....h4! is played by the programs at very >>low depths also.Deeper Blue must be inferior to current Commercials for turning >>a Draw into a loss by playing 39....Kh6? 200 million positions per second and >>still it does not see 39...h4.I think Deeper Blue was at least 200 Elo points >>weaker than the current Commercials.HERE IS CHESSMASTER 9000 autoplay at 999sec >>per move at 1.8 GHZ after 39.....h4! >>CHESSMASTER 9000:39...h4 40.Ng2 Kf8 41.Nxh4 Bd1 42.f6 Bxc2 43.g7+ Kf7 44.Nf5 >>Kxf6 45.g5+ Kxg5 46.Bxe5 Rxe5 47.Rg1+ Kf6 48.g8=Q Rxg8 49.Rxg8 Rxf5+ 50.Bxf5 >>Kxf5 AND in this Drawn position the Computer(CM 9000) moves pieces back and >>forth for another 30 moves which I do not list without any advantage for any >>side.SO I THINK AFTER 39.....h4! IT IS A DRAW. > > >This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever read on CCC. > >DBII had h4, and and shook it in 29s to pick Kh6. Why? Because h4 is the worst >move possible. It loses *VERY* quickly. > >After h4, 40.Ng2 is a _HORRIBLE_ move. g5 is winning, and winning big. F6 >chooses it in seconds with a modest score. After 40...Kg8 41. Bg2 white is up >over +1.50. After 41...Kf8 42. Bxf3 the score is +2.00. > >And guess what?! DBII saw ALL of this, while your CM @ 999 seconds did not. > > >In the position of 39... in this game, black is lost. Period. DBII played the >*best* move, Kh6 with a losing score. In this position, h4 is losing. And >losing faster than Kh6. You are probably right that black is lost. I probably did a mistake in believing the poster that he played with CM at 999 seconds per move or assuming that he did not use some very slow hardware like p90 because CM can even see g5 in the pv in some minutes based on what I see in another post. I may be wrong and maybe CM has an evaluation that is not symmetric or maybe the poster used a bad personality of CM but I expect every top program to find g5. I will be surprised if there is one commercial that cannot see it in 999 seconds Even my movei can see g5 in less than 2 minutes on p850 and it does not seem to want to change it's mind I did not expect it to be so easy to contradict the analysis of a top program at 999 seconds per move so I assumed that I have no time for serious analysis. My analysis also does not prove that g5 is winning and the big score of Fritz may be an illusion but after seeing all the posts I guess that g5 is winning until I see a proof that it is not winning. New game [D]3rr3/6k1/2p3P1/1p2nP2/pP2p1Pp/P1B1Nb1B/2P2K2/5R2 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Movei00_8_077: 2.f6+ Kxf6 = (0.12) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2.f6+ Kxg6 3.Bxe5 Rxe5 -+ (-2.16) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Bxe5+ -+ (-2.15) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Bxe5+ -+ (-1.86) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Bxe5+ Rxe5 3.Rc1 Rd2+ 4.Kf1 µ (-1.01) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Ng2 µ (-1.00) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Ng2 µ (-0.71) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 ³ (-0.26) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rg1 = (-0.25) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rg1 = (0.04) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rg1 Kh8 = (-0.14) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Re1 = (-0.13) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Re1 Kh8 3.Bxe5+ Rxe5 = (-0.08) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rc1 = (-0.07) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rc1 Kh8 3.Bxe5+ Rxe5 = (-0.01) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rb1 = (0.00) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rc1 Kh8 3.Bxe5+ Rxe5 = (-0.01) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Ra1 = (0.00) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Rc1 Kh8 3.Bxe5+ Rxe5 = (-0.01) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Kg1 = (0.00) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Kg1 ² (0.29) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Kh8 = (0.06) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Kh8 = (0.06) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Be2 3.Rc1 ² (0.33) Depth: 3 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Be2 3.Rc1 ² (0.33) Depth: 3 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Rd6 3.Rb1 Kh8 = (0.03) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Rc1 = (0.04) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Rd6 3.Rb1 Kh8 = (0.03) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Re1 = (0.04) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Kg1 Rd6 3.Rb1 Kh8 = (0.03) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Ng2 = (0.04) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Ng2 ² (0.33) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bd1 3.Kg1 Bxc2 4.Nxh4 = (0.18) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bd1 3.Kg1 Bxc2 4.Nxh4 = (0.18) Depth: 4 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 Kg8 4.Bxe5 Rxe5 5.Ke3 = (0.09) Depth: 5 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 Kg8 4.Bxe5 Rxe5 5.Ke3 = (0.09) Depth: 5 00:00:00 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 Kh6 4.Bxe5 Rxe5 5.Ke3 Rde8 = (0.09) Depth: 6 00:00:00 53kN 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 Kh6 4.Bxe5 Rxe5 5.Ke3 Rde8 = (0.09) Depth: 6 00:00:01 80kN 2.Ng2 Bxg2 3.Bxg2 Kh6 4.Bxe5 Rd2+ 5.Ke3 Rxg2 6.Kf4 = (0.09) Depth: 7 00:00:01 126kN 2.Rb1 = (0.10) Depth: 7 00:00:01 215kN 2.Rb1 Rd6 3.Ng2 Bxg2 4.Bxg2 Kh6 5.Bxe4 Nxg6 = (0.14) Depth: 7 00:00:02 270kN 2.Rb1 Rd6 3.Ng2 Bxg2 4.Bxg2 Kh6 5.Bxe4 Nxg6 = (0.14) Depth: 7 00:00:02 278kN 2.Rb1 Kf6 3.Rg1 Kg5 4.g7 Re7 5.Bd4 Kf6 = (-0.06) Depth: 8 00:00:03 483kN 2.Ng2 = (-0.05) Depth: 8 00:00:04 565kN 2.Ng2 Kg8 3.Nxh4 Bxg4 4.Bxg4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Rd7 6.Ng2 Kf8 = (0.06) Depth: 8 00:00:05 693kN 2.Ng2 Kg8 3.Nxh4 Bxg4 4.Bxg4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Rd7 6.Ng2 Kf8 = (0.06) Depth: 8 00:00:07 1026kN 2.Ng2 Bd1 3.Nxh4 Bxc2 4.Kg1 Rd6 5.g5 Kg8 6.f6 = (0.06) Depth: 9 00:00:13 1953kN 2.Bg2 = (0.07) Depth: 9 00:00:18 2732kN 2.Bg2 Kh6 3.Bxe5 Rd2+ 4.Kg1 Rxe5 5.Bxf3 exf3 6.Rxf3 Kg7 7.Rh3 ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:20 2962kN 2.Bg2 Kh6 3.Bxe5 Rd2+ 4.Kg1 Rxe5 5.Bxf3 exf3 6.Rxf3 Kg7 7.Rh3 ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:21 3099kN 2.Bg2 Bxg2 3.Nxg2 Kh6 4.Nxh4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Kg5 6.Ng2 Rd5 7.Bd2+ Kf6 8.Bc3+ Kg5 = (0.00) Depth: 10 00:00:25 3818kN 2.Ng2 = (0.01) Depth: 10 00:00:30 4594kN 2.Bg2 Bxg2 3.Nxg2 Kh6 4.Nxh4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Kg5 6.Ng2 Rd5 7.Bd2+ Kf6 8.Bc3+ Kg5 = (0.00) Depth: 10 00:00:35 5265kN 2.Bg2 Bxg2 3.Nxg2 Kh6 4.Nxh4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Kg5 6.Ng2 Rd5 7.Bd2+ Kf6 8.Bc3+ Kg5 = (0.00) Depth: 10 00:00:48 7328kN 2.Bg2 Bxg2 3.Nxg2 Kh6 4.Nxh4 Nxg4+ 5.Ke2 Kg5 6.Ng2 Rd5 7.Bd2+ Kf6 8.Bc3+ Kg5 = (0.00) Depth: 11 00:00:54 8237kN 2.Ng2 = (0.01) Depth: 11 00:01:01 9303kN 2.Ng2 Kh6 3.Bxe5 Rxe5 4.Nxh4 Bd1 5.Re1 Kg7 6.c3 e3+ 7.Kg3 Kf6 8.Nf3 = (0.04) Depth: 11 00:01:08 10380kN 2.g5 = (0.05) Depth: 11 00:01:23 12627kN 2.g5 Kf8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Nf3 5.f6 Rd7 6.Kh3 Red8 7.f7 Re7 = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:01:40 15185kN 2.g5 Kf8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Nf3 5.f6 Rd7 6.Kh3 Red8 7.f7 Re7 = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:01:47 16201kN 2.g5 Kg8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Kf8 5.Bxe5 Rxe5 6.Kh3 c5 7.bxc5 Kg7 8.Kxh4 Rxc5 ± (0.85) Depth: 12 00:03:48 33794kN 2.g5 Kg8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Kf8 5.Bxe5 Rxe5 6.Kh3 c5 7.bxc5 Kg7 8.Kxh4 Rxc5 ± (0.85) Depth: 12 00:04:11 37062kN 2.g5 Kf8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Rd7 5.Bxe5 Rd2+ 6.Kh3 Rxe5 7.Re1 c5 8.bxc5 Rxc5 9.Kxh4 ± (0.85) Depth: 13 00:05:14 46497kN 2.g5 Kf8 3.Bg2 Bxg2 4.Kxg2 Rd7 5.Bxe5 Rd2+ 6.Kh3 Rxe5 7.Re1 c5 8.bxc5 Rxc5 9.Kxh4 ± (0.85) Depth: 13 00:05:49 51609kN (, eim 27.06.2003) Uri
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.