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Subject: note

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 02:50:43 07/07/03

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On July 07, 2003 at 01:49:50, Ralph Stoesser wrote:

Go to an average backgammon tournament and you'll see in the top many
chessplayers there. of course don't try that in Greece. Not enough chessplayers
there. But even there the few chessplayers will be winning the tournament
nearly.

The doubling cube action is something that hand tuning will completely outgun of
course.

You must compare it with casino games. As soon as there is a lot of money
involved all the chances there get written down by *hand* even. Also when it's
thousands of possibilities.

Now in games of backgammon, a lot of money at the topboards is involved, but
that's because of people betting at their games, not getting paid for an engine.

Cheers,
Vincent

>On July 06, 2003 at 21:26:31, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On July 06, 2003 at 17:51:53, Ralph Stoesser wrote:
>>
>>>On July 06, 2003 at 17:38:01, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 16:21:05, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 15:42:25, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 08:00:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 03:04:07, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 01:15:41, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On July 06, 2003 at 00:25:49, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>><snipped>
>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe using it for the evaluation is not the most efficient use of a neural
>>>>>>>>>>>network in a chess program. It seems that the way human players manage to search
>>>>>>>>>>>the tree is vastly underestimated.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Christophe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I agree with you that search is underestimated in chess but I also believe
>>>>>>>>>>that search and evaluation are connected because a lot of search decisions are
>>>>>>>>>>based on evaluation of positions that are not leaf positions so you cannot
>>>>>>>>>>seperate them and say search improvement gives x elo and evaluation improvement
>>>>>>>>>>gives y elo.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I know that you did not try to seperate between them but my point is that if you
>>>>>>>>>want to do the same as humans in the search then changing the search is not
>>>>>>>>>enough.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Humans may search position for some seconds and decide that this position is not
>>>>>>>>>good and later search the same position but decide that it is good for them not
>>>>>>>>>because they search deeper but because they learned to change their evaluation
>>>>>>>>>based on searching other lines that leaded to a similiar position.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well my point is just that when people talk about an application of ANN in chess
>>>>>>>>they always talk about implementing the evaluation with an ANN, or tuning the
>>>>>>>>evaluation with them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think it tends to show that the application of ANN to chess has never been
>>>>>>>>done by a "real" chess programmer. Because evaluation is only a part of a chess
>>>>>>>>program. And maybe not the one that can be improved dramatically, or that needs
>>>>>>>>them in order to be improved. Personally I would not use ANNs in the evaluation
>>>>>>>>first, because I think they would be much more efficient somewhere else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On the other hand, you are right. If one could design an ANN to perform the
>>>>>>>>evaluation, it would be wise to use the same ANN (or an extension of it) to
>>>>>>>>guide the search.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Christophe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I believe that the biggest advantage that can be achieved in evaluation is not
>>>>>>>in changing the initial static evaluation but in learning to change the
>>>>>>>evaluation during the game based on the results of the search.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I also do not believe that what humans know is the target and the target should
>>>>>>>be better than what humans know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>programs found better evaluation than humans in backgammon and program may find
>>>>>>>better search rules than humans in chess not because programs are smarter but
>>>>>>>because programs may do trillions of calculation to learn and humans cannot do
>>>>>>>it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is the same utter nonsense crap that i keep seeing AI people write. Yet on
>>>>>>average they even have less experience than you and keep believing in something
>>>>>>they can never proof to be made. If they would have even *toyed* with ANNs a bit
>>>>>>they will understand more about the impossibilities about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>I only say that I believe that it can be done.
>>>>>It does not mean that I know how to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Show me a backgammon program with an ANN that beats a 5 turns fullwidth
>>>>>>searching backgammon program :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course show it at a machine that you and i have at home.
>>>>>
>>>>>Very easy
>>>>>the 5 turns fullwidth searching backgammon program is going to lose on time
>>>>>every game.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The average ANN expert is assuming he has to his availability something doing
>>>>>>10^1000 calculations.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not ANN expert and I did not suggest ideas how to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That is the major problem when talking to these guys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course you can optimize an ANN for chess in 10^1000 calculations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But you will then be beaten by a database of just 10^43.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am however sure that 99% of all ANN interested will not understand what i
>>>>>>write here above, simply because they do not know the running time of the learn
>>>>>>methods applied. If they would read themselves into that, then less crap would
>>>>>>leave their mouth.
>>>>>
>>>>>I did not say that the learning methods that are used in backgammon can work in
>>>>>chess and it is possible that people need to invent different learning methods.
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>If there was money to earn by programming a backgammon engine, i am sure some
>>>>guys who are good in forward pruning algorithms like Johan de Koning would win
>>>>every event there. It's like making a tictactoe program and then claiming that
>>>>an ANN is going to work.
>>>
>>>Version 4 Professional edition, full version USD 380
>>>from http://www.snowie4.com/
>>>
>>>Do you know the rules of Backgammon? Remember, you have to consider two dices in
>>>your search tree. If it's so easy to do better without NN, do it and you will
>>>earn a lot of USD. Usually backgammon players have more mony in their pocket
>>>than chess players ;)
>>
>>There is so little backgammon players however.
>
>
>
>If you go to a backgammon
>>tournament i pay like 250 euro entry fee. it is sick. Every good chessplayer can
>>play backgammon very well trivially.
>>
>>It is a matter of a good % calculation and chances. this is trivial stuff.
>
>It isn't trivial. How do you explain that all top backgammon programs use NNs?
>Shouldn't be some trivial statistically calculation enough? In backgammon you
>have not only the problem to find the best move (what is also not trivially),
>but to find the right cube action for the doubling cube and that's very very far
>from beeing trivial. And why a good chessplayer should be able to play very well
>backgammon trivially? I would agree that it can help learning beackgammon to be
>a good chessplayer, but there is nothing like the implication you gave about it.
>
>
>If
>>there was to earn big bugs with just ENGINE (so i do not mean interface) then
>>there would be much chessprogrammers writing such an engine ;)
>
>Btw:
>Is there big bucks to earn with a chess engine?
>
>>
>>>Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>As we have a saying here: "In the land of the blind, one eyed is King".
>>>>
>>>>That's why i focus upon chess.
>>>>
>>>>In contradiction to you, i know how to do it with ANNs (just like many others
>>>>do), i just don't have 10^1000 system time to actually let the learning
>>>>algorithm finish ;)
>>>>
>>>>Any approximation in the meantime will be playing very lousy chess...
>>>>
>>>>Hell, with 10^1000 runs, even TD learning might be correctly finding the right
>>>>parameter optimization :)
>>>>
>>>>TD learning is randomly flipping a few parameters each time. It's pretty close
>>>>to GA's in that respect.



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