Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:46:11 07/07/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 07, 2003 at 13:46:42, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >On July 07, 2003 at 11:06:06, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On July 06, 2003 at 17:31:29, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >> >>>On July 06, 2003 at 09:07:24, Bo Persson wrote: >>> >>>>The argument was about Tom insisting that the 8080 couldn't have influenced the >>>>x86 instruction set, because its name didn't end in 86. It's not all in the >>>>name! >>> >>>No, no, no, no, no. Of COURSE the 8080 influenced the x86 instruction set. >>> >>>I'm just saying that the 8080 is not an x86. >>> >>>This is like saying the BMW 2002 was the first BMW 3-series. The BMW 2002 was >>>the predecessor to the 3-series, it influenced the design of the 3-series, it >>>was similar to the first 3-series in many ways, but it WAS NOT A 3-SERIES >>>because its model number DID NOT START WITH 3. >>> >>>Bob is hiding behind linguistic sloppyness to avoid admitting that he was wrong. >> >>Nope, I'll say it once more. The lineage went like this: >> >>8080 -> 8085 -> 8086/8088 -> 80186 -> 80286 -> 80386 -> 80486 -> 80586 >>(AKA pentium) -> 80686 (AKA pentium-pro) and there the "86" was dropped >>totally. Which, according to your twisted logic, means that the PIV is _not_ >>a member of the 80x86 product line since there is _no_ 86 in the name. > >I could go either way on that. BTW, Intel didn't call the Pentium the 80586, or >the PPro the 686, so I don't either.\ I run in a different circle. :) And the linux guys call 'em 586 and 686 which has sort of "stuck". > If somebody wanted to argue that [all] >Pentiums are not x86s, that's fine with me, because their chip numbers do not >end in 86. If somebody else wanted to argue that Pentiums ARE x86s because they >only run x86 code, that's also fine with me. > >My problem is when somebody calls the 8080 an x86 even though its number doesn't >end in 86 and it doesn't even run x86 software. I mean, really, what POSSIBLE >reason do you have for calling the 8080 an x86 besides the fact that they're >related enough architecturally (in your OPINION) to be considered part of the >same "family." That is all I said. They were in the same family, which includes the 8080/8085, the 80x86's, and the pentiums. Each new generation has added new architectural details. IE the main change for the 8086 was those blasted segment registers to extend the address range to 20 bits. It was later extended to 32 bits, and eventually to 36 bits by the xeons. But common to all of them is the ability to do a "mov al,5" and so forth. Which is enough for me to say "same family" and if someone wants to "name that family" the world has used the term "x86 or 80x86" to name that family for years, even though many of the "family" have no "86" (or any other number except maybe a Roman Numeral) in their official names. > >I can imagine you marching into BMW headquarters and arguing with them that the >BMW 2002 was the first 3-series because in your OPINION they were related enough >that the 2002 should be grandfathered in. It would depend on a lot of things, and your example is flawed. For example, the chevy Impala. Is today's Impala in the same "family" as the previous one? I don't think so. Same name, different vehicle, different size, different drive-train (front vs rear drive), etc. So the "name" is not the important thing, it is the "family tree". IE certainly the old Bel Air, Biscayne, and Impala were in the "same family". Some were fancier than others. But they were all related, by things like parts interchangability, and so forth. For someone that programmed both the 8080, 8085 and 8086, I didn't see a hill of beans in them except for speed. And those segment registers which were a lousy idea. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, etc, then it is in the duck family, whether someone else calls it a flamswat or a knickerbocker or something else. That was my point. You are hung up on the numbers. I'm hung up on the "look and feel of the architecture." > >-Tom
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