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Subject: Re: Cray

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 19:44:00 07/12/03

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On July 12, 2003 at 17:51:12, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On July 11, 2003 at 12:52:13, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 10, 2003 at 23:18:30, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On July 10, 2003 at 16:36:50, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>You show up with a cray supercomputer and i may only bring something my hands
>>>>>can carry :)
>>>>
>>>>Feel free to do so.  I'll take a T932 over _anything_ you can carry by
>>>>hand, no questions asked.
>>>
>>>The Cray the NWO owned a bunch of years ago was replaced by the 1024 processor
>>>TERAS machine in 2000.
>>
>>Please read what I wrote.  "over anything you can carry by hand..."
>>
>>I think that is pretty clear.  And you aren't going to carry a 1024 processor
>>TERRA by hand.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>It now is upgraded to 1440 processors. That is a new machine with 416 processors
>>>is added to it. Most jobs they found out at the TERAS were either up to 8 cpu's
>>>or up to 32 cpu's.
>>>
>>>>>I'm not sure about the microprocessor designs, we can ask AMD and intel after
>>>>>it. Apple doesn't produce microprocessors at all. They use IBM processors
>>>>>nowadays and before IBM they used Motorola.
>>>>
>>>>Apple produces _machines_.  They do circuit layout and testing on a Cray.
>>>
>>>That's funny because i do not own a single apple product AFAIK. My sister does
>>>though. That's typical however as she is a graphics artist and VJ and makes a
>>>small chance to get our first female prime minister :)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>However about the weather forecasting guess why the 1024 processor from december
>>>>>2002 till end of gulfwar II was overloaded with weather guys :)
>>>>>
>>>>>It was like this. On average 400 cpu's got used up until december. Then suddenly
>>>>>a dang at the machine. When i checked out which dudes prevented me from doing a
>>>>>few tests, i knew it was going to be war soon.
>>>>>
>>>>>Weather guys LOVE memory. For them vector processing isn't so important as is a
>>>>>huge memory.
>>>>
>>>>They are related.  Vector processing lets you _use_ "huge memory" efficiently.
>>>
>>>Yes put that in between "", see below.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I remember a weather guy some 7 years ago who as a selfemployed managed to lay
>>>>>his hands on an outdated Sun machine with 2 processors. He was in the skies so
>>>>>happy. I asked him then why he was so happy with those dusted cpu's and he
>>>>>explained that he didn't care for the cpu's but for the 2 GB memory inside :)
>>>>
>>>>Cray's don't come with 2 gigs of memory.  The T90 typically has 16-32 gigs.
>>>
>>>that's funny because that poor Cray T916 which was replaced by the TERAS, it has
>>>1 terabyte since 2000 already. It has soon nearly 2.
>>
>>Different machine.  You won't do this on your Terra:
>>
>>double x [1000][1000][1000];
>>and then do anything useful with it.
>
>that's less than 8GB!
>
>that's indeed not useful for the TERAS.
>
>Too small.

Compute the inverse of that matrix on your TERA.  _THEN_ you will see
the bandwidth problem when the entire array has to be used by the entire
machine.  NUMA dies.

>
>It's as i said busy now creating a 8TB database for weather predictions.

Different application.  Different math.  "embarassingly parallel".

>
>To use your way of representing that's a dataset of:
>
>  double x [1024][1024][1024][1024];
>
>Such 8GB arrays you can let 2 oxens handle even :)
>
>350000 cpu hours come down to 350k gflops = 350 tflops = 0.35 petaflops
>
>I guess for matrix multiplications they'll be using for the 8TB database
>something like an approximation library, because a single matrix calculation
>with the weather prediction database is just too slow as you need = 10^40
>calculations for that which even is a bit much for the Earth machine to do :)
>
>>That is the power of the Cray, to handle large arrays _and_ stomp through
>>them impossibly quick without regard to NUMA issues.
>
>That's why they're gonna use opterons and hypertransport in the future for
>Crays.

Again, different machine.  Different target application.  Different math.

The opterons won't touch the T90 for several reasons.

For some applications, yes.  But for some _important_ applications.  No.
Clusters are not the answer to _all_ questions.  Neither is NUMA.  That's
why supercomputer companies like Fujitsu, Cray, NEC, etc build such machines.


>
>>>The climate job that runs now at the TERAS needs around 350000 cpu hours and 10
>>>terabyte of i/o, so 1 TB memory is more than welcome for it.
>>>
>>>When it would run on the old Cray T916 (strong oxens) that would take 150 years
>>>it says.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Vincent



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