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Subject: Re: Correction on the 1st diagram and analysis

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 15:14:48 07/29/03

Go up one level in this thread


On July 29, 2003 at 08:28:32, emerson tan wrote:

>Deep Blue's 36.axb5 and 37.Be4 in game 2 of the match in 1997 along with Deep
>Blue's 11...h5 in game 5 are the moves that made Kaparov to imply that there was
>human intervention.

it was one of the many smoke screens that kasparov layed down to reveal his
horrible loss. really i lost in a horrible way a few games last week (playing
dutch champs now) and i can tell you. None of them were so bad like this
game from kasparov side.

The reason why kasparov thought 37.Be4 is a human move so to say is because Qb6
wins by force a few pawns and the game.

37.Be4 is a BAD move.

As proven 37.Qb6 wins by force a few pawns. In a few lines where some say: "here
i can try to get a perpetual" there in fact white can exchange to bishop
endgames (opposite) which are won.

Just play Qb6 and see for yourself.

It just depends upon the penalty of opposite bisohps whether a program likes Be4
or Qb6.

Crafty in 1997 played at the same depth like Deep Blue searched there, also Be4.
Idem DIEP.

However because of hashtables they search a lot deeper.

>
>Kasparov doesnt believe that Deep Blue or any other chess program can play moves
>like those mentioned.
>
>I tried the positions on Deep Fritz 7 and Junior 5 and here are the results:
>Comp Deep Blue - Kasparov,G
>
>
>[D]r1r1q1k1/6p1/p2b1p1p/1p1PpP2/PPp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Deep Fritz 7:
>
>36.Qb6!
>  +-  (1.59)   Depth: 8/21   00:00:00  251kN
>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rcb8 39.axb5 Rxb5 40.Be4 Bd6 41.Rxa6 Rxa6
>  +-  (1.50)   Depth: 9/22   00:00:00  497kN
>36.Qb6 Bc7 37.Qe6+ Qxe6 38.fxe6 Rcb8 39.axb5 Rxb5 40.Be4 Bd6 41.Rxa6 Rxa6
>42.Rxa6
>  +-  (1.50)   Depth: 10/25   00:00:01  955kN
>36.Qb6 Rd8 37.Be4 Be7 38.axb5 Rd6 39.Qa5 Bd8 40.Qa4 Bb6+ 41.Kh2 Qh5 42.Qc2 Qg5
>43.bxa6
>  +-  (1.56)   Depth: 11/29   00:00:03  2713kN
>36.Qb6 Rd8 37.Be4 Be7 38.axb5 Rd6 39.Qa5 Bd8 40.Qa4 Ra7 41.Kh2 Bc7 42.bxa6 Qh5
>  +-  (1.63)   Depth: 12/33   00:00:09  6451kN
>36.Qb6 Rd8 37.Be4 Be7 38.axb5 Rd6 39.Qa5 Bd8 40.Qa4 Ra7 41.Kh2 Bc7 42.bxa6 Qh5
>  +-  (1.63)   Depth: 13/34   00:00:19  14662kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Bxe4 Qe5 40.Bf3 Qe3+ 41.Kf1 Qd3+ 42.Kf2
>Be5 43.Qe6+ Kh8 44.d6 Qxc3
>  +-  (1.41)   Depth: 14/35   00:00:41  31018kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Re1 Qd8 40.Raa1 Ra8 41.Qb7 Rab8 42.Qa7 Bc7
>43.Qa6
>  +-  (1.41)   Depth: 15/38   00:01:30  69547kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Re1 Qd8 40.Raa1 Ra8 41.Qb7 Rab8 42.Qa7 Bc7
>43.Qa6
>  +-  (1.41)   Depth: 16/40   00:03:10  146745kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Re1 Qd8 40.Raa1 Ra8 41.Qb7 Rab8 42.Qa7 Be5
>43.Qe3
>  ±  (1.34)   Depth: 17/44   00:06:27  301496kN
>36.Qb6--
>  ±  (1.06)   Depth: 18/47   00:26:31  1204122kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qxa6 e4 39.Bxe4 Qe5 40.Kf1 Rd8 41.Re2 Qxc3 42.Rae1
>Bxb4
>  ±  (1.03)   Depth: 18/72   00:37:04  1683194kN
>36.Qb6 Qe7 37.axb5 Rab8 38.Qf2 axb5 39.Be4 Qd8 40.Ra6 Ra8
>  ±  (1.03)   Depth: 19/54   01:01:56  2861739kN
>36.axb5!
>  ±  (1.06)   Depth: 19/54   01:21:20  3795485kN
>36.axb5 axb5 37.Qb6 Rxa2 38.Rxa2 Ra8 39.Rxa8
>  ±  (1.06)   Depth: 20/51   01:56:18  5485120kN
>36.axb5 axb5 37.Qb6 Rxa2 38.Rxa2 Ra8 39.Rxa8
>  ±  (1.06)   Depth: 21/60   03:57:20  11339720kN
>36.axb5 axb5 37.Qb6 Rxa2 38.Rxa2 Ra8 39.Rxa8
>  ±  (1.06)   Depth: 22/61   08:19:18  23943525kN
>
>(, MyTown 26.07.2003)
>
>
>Comp Deep Blue - Kasparov,G
>[D]r1r1q1k1/6p1/3b1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Deep Fritz 7:
>
>37.Qb6 Rxa2 38.Rxa2 Bc7 39.Qa6 Rd8 40.Qb7 Bb8 41.Be4 Bd6 42.Ra7
>  ±  (0.75)   Depth: 9/20   00:00:00  245kN
>37.Qb6 Bc7 38.Qe6+ Qxe6 39.dxe6 Rxa2 40.Rxa2 Kf8 41.Kf1 Bb6 42.Ra6 Be3 43.Be4
>  ²  (0.69)   Depth: 10/28   00:00:00  428kN
>37.Be4!
>  ±  (0.72)   Depth: 10/28   00:00:00  488kN
>37.Be4 Rxa2 38.Qxa2 Rd8 39.Qa6 Qd7 40.Qb6 Bc7 41.Qe6+ Qxe6 42.dxe6 Bb6+ 43.Kf1
>Kf8 44.Ke2 Ke7
>  ±  (0.75)   Depth: 11/31   00:00:02  1729kN
>37.Be4 Rxa2 38.Qxa2 Rd8 39.Qa6 Qd7 40.Qb6 Bc7 41.Qc5 Bd6 42.Qe3 Qe8 43.Ra5 Rb8
>44.Kh2 Qh5 45.Ra7
>  ±  (0.72)   Depth: 12/31   00:00:04  3158kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Qc8 40.R6a5 Rxa5 41.Rxa5 Qd8 42.Qg3 Qd7 43.Qg6
>  ±  (0.81)   Depth: 13/34   00:00:16  12565kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Kh8 41.Kh1 Kg8 42.Qa7
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 14/39   00:00:34  26570kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Kh8 41.Kh1 Kg8 42.Qa7 Rb6 43.Rxb6
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 15/37   00:00:50  40088kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Kh8 41.Kh1 Kg8 42.Qa7 Bf8 43.Kg1
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 16/40   00:01:24  67869kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Kh8 41.Kh1 Kg8 42.Qa7 Bf8 43.Kg1 Bd6
>44.Kh2
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 17/47   00:02:34  126289kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Kh8 41.Kh1 Kg8 42.Qa7 Bf8 43.Kg1 Bd6
>44.Kh2
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 18/48   00:05:29  269014kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Kf8 43.Qa7
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 19/48   00:10:24  516602kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Rb7 43.Rc6 Kh7
>44.Kh1 Rb8
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 20/52   00:21:52  1082064kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Rb7 43.Rc6 Kh7
>44.Kh1 Kg8 45.Ra6
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 21/55   00:45:23  2255740kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Rb7 43.Rc6 Kh7
>44.Kh1 Kg8 45.Ra6
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 22/59   01:39:26  4936283kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Rb7 43.Rc6 Kh7
>44.Kg1 Kg8
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 23/65   03:51:24  11313418kN
>37.Be4 Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Rxa6 40.Rxa6 Rb7 41.Qg3 Rb8 42.Qe3 Rb7 43.Rc6 Kh7
>44.Kg1 Bb8
>  ±  (0.84)   Depth: 24/76   09:47:23  28378832kN
>
>(, MyTown 27.07.2003)
>
>Kasparov,G - Comp Deep Blue
>[D]r2qk2r/pp3ppp/2p1pn2/4n3/1b6/3P2PP/PPPN1PB1/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Junior 5.0:
>
>11...Qa5 12.0-0
>  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 3   00:00:00  1kN
>11...Qa5 12.d4 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6
>  ³  (-0.39)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  8kN
>11...Qd4 12.a3 Bxd2+ 13.Qxd2 Rd8
>  ³  (-0.47)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  21kN
>11...Qd4 12.a3 Bxd2+ 13.Qxd2 Rd8
>  ³  (-0.47)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  23kN
>11...Qd4 12.0-0 Bxd2 13.Qxd2 0-0-0 14.Qg5
>  =  (-0.21)   Depth: 9   00:00:00  70kN
>11...0-0 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.0-0 Qd4
>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 9   00:00:00  111kN
>11...0-0 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.0-0 Qd4
>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 9   00:00:01  434kN
>11...0-0 12.0-0 Ned7 13.c3 Be7 14.d4 e5
>  =  (-0.21)   Depth: 12   00:00:01  838kN
>11...0-0 12.0-0 Ned7 13.c3 Be7 14.d4 e5
>  =  (-0.21)   Depth: 12   00:00:05  5059kN
>11...0-0 12.0-0 Ba5 13.Ne4 Ned7 14.Bg5 e5 15.d4
>  =  (-0.14)   Depth: 15   00:00:07  7238kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Bd6 13.d4 Ng6 14.Be4 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Bc7 16.Be3 Ba5+ 17.Bd2 e5
>  =  (-0.24)   Depth: 15   00:00:20  19835kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Bd6 13.d4 Ng6 14.Be4 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Bc7 16.Be3 Ba5+ 17.Bd2 e5
>  =  (-0.24)   Depth: 15   00:00:51  47571kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.0-0 Ng4 16.Bf3 N6e5
>  =  (-0.15)   Depth: 17   00:01:22  77848kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.0-0 Ng4 16.Bf3 N6e5
>  =  (-0.15)   Depth: 17   00:04:39  250610kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.0-0 Ng4 16.Bf3 N6e5
>  =  (-0.15)   Depth: 18   00:05:31  298959kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.0-0 Ng4 16.Bf3 N6e5
>  =  (-0.15)   Depth: 18   00:11:58  629071kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.Nc4 Be7 16.0-0 b5 17.Ne3 Qb6
>  =  (-0.10)   Depth: 19   00:14:07  746855kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 0-0 15.Nc4 Be7 16.0-0 b5 17.Ne3 Qb6
>  =  (-0.10)   Depth: 19   00:33:27  1757903kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Bd6 13.Rf1 Qa5 14.d4 Ng6 15.c3 Qf5 16.Nc4 0-0-0 17.Ne3 Qb5
>18.Qxb5 cxb5
>  =  (-0.06)   Depth: 20   00:41:01  2184898kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Bd6 13.Rf1 Qa5 14.d4 Ng6 15.c3 Qf5 16.Nc4 0-0-0 17.Ne3 Qb5
>18.Qxb5 cxb5
>  =  (-0.06)   Depth: 20   01:33:33  677195kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 Qd7 15.Ne4 0-0-0 16.Be3 Kb8 17.Nxf6 gxf6
>18.a4
>  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 21   01:46:57  1431959kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 Qd7 15.Ne4 0-0-0 16.Be3 Kb8 17.Nxf6 gxf6
>18.a4
>  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 21   03:59:12  4231602kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 Qd7 15.Ne4 0-0-0 16.Nxf6 gxf6 17.Be3 Kb8
>18.Bf3 Bc7
>  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 22   04:28:34  1610632kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Ng6 13.c3 Bd6 14.h4 Qd7 15.Ne4 0-0-0 16.Nxf6 gxf6 17.Be3 Kb8
>18.Bf3 Bc7
>  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 22   09:01:24  3130210kN
>11...h5 12.Qe2 Qc7 13.c3 Bd6 14.d4 Ng6 15.h4 0-0-0 16.0-0 e5 17.Ne4 Be7 18.Ng5
>Rhf8 19.Qc4 Nd5 20.a4
>  =  (-0.06)   Depth: 25   20:06:52  2794565kN
>
>(, MyTown 28.07.2003)
>
>It shows that given enough depth, some programs can replicate the moves.
>
>
>
> My computer was just running Deep Fritz 7 at an average of 600KNS, Deep Blue
>was running around 125 million nodes per second
>
>
>Actually, Mig Greengard already mentioned before that junior 5 was able to find
>the 11...h5 move. He discovered that after he interviewed Kasparov regarding the
>match with IBM. Mig mentioned that the Junior 5 program was even installed in
>the laptop Gary was using.
>
>
>
>It shows that Deep Blue did not cheat. The IBM team had several help during its
>development from different Grandmasters like Joel Benjamin, Robert Byrne, Miguel
>Illescas, Nick DeFirmain and John Fedorowincz. They may have gotten some
>feedback also from Michael Rohde and Larry Christiansen during the training
>matches. So the evaluation



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