Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 15:29:23 07/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
First is Hubner and Fritz Then Rebel and Loek van Wely Diepeveen kibitzes: what's the score fritz vs huebner? AlmostDecent kibitzes: no second. 1st was a draw Diepeveen kibitzes: aha and here we have another obvious draw Diepeveen kibitzes: as fritz doesn' tknow about opposite bishops this is what is going to happen soon prob Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: Fritz claiming almost a pawn advantage at -0.80. AlmostDecent kibitzes: Yes. It may find some way to get a pawn by trading B bishop for knight and only then find it has zilch. Diepeveen kibitzes: bishop pair, attack at f4 hehe AlmostDecent kibitzes: because the result would be an opposite colored bishop ending. Diepeveen kibitzes: easy draw nah? Lavir kibitzes: ok, but the responses are for the article of Rohde, not for the story of the depth JAKETTER kibitzes: leko could draw this AlmostDecent kibitzes: Frankly, if we had a comp that could go 1000 plies deep, my question would be why on earth are we wasting it on plies in chess.... :-) Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: Fritz: Be4 -0.91 depth 18. Lavir kibitzes: you have not understood what I was saying, the person in question has just calculated that all possible moves are findable at depth 1000 Game 6: guest667 moves: Be4 Lavir kibitzes: not that we will ever reach it or if we will reach it Game 6: guest667 moves: hxg5+ Game 6: guest667 moves: hxg5 Game 6: guest667 moves: Bb5 AlexeiD kibitzes: draw? Lavir kibitzes: it is only a calculation of how much depth is needed to find all possible moves in a chessboard AlmostDecent kibitzes: I'd be curious to know how that figure was reached CtID kibitzes: so what you are saying is that the longest possible game is 1000 moves? Diepeveen kibitzes: lavir to search 1000 plies deep you need around 1.76^1000 nodes CtID kibitzes: that sounds reasonable. Lavir kibitzes: oh, dipeven, you remember the post, right? Diepeveen kibitzes: 1.76^1000 (note 1.76 is the human branching factor) is around 3.255875683015114220223636320e+245 Lavir kibitzes: it was in the icc forum you are there too Diepeveen kibitzes: just like Ctid i have my own chessprogram so i can calculate quite well with search spaces :) Lavir kibitzes: I've not said that, someone else said it Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: Fritz now -1.19 in lead. Lavir kibitzes: I neither think that we will ever reach that point with computers Diepeveen kibitzes: chess is solved long before you can search 1000 plies deep Diepeveen kibitzes: all you need is a 10^45 or so database Diepeveen kibitzes: note that that's not a small database :) JAKETTER kibitzes: we would use the computer to figure out pi once and for all Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: I agree. anything beyond 100 plies is not taking into account the 50 move draw rule. Lavir kibitzes: or a 32 pieces set tablebase ;-) Diepeveen kibitzes: around 2070 or so we will get close to searching 10^46 on paper. but that's based upon doubling speedup of processors each 2 years Nouvalys kibitzes: comps never will reach even 50 plies Lavir kibitzes: yes, sure, I was only saing what read in an article of ICC Diepeveen kibitzes: in pawn endgames i already get 50 nouvalys :) Lavir kibitzes: I don't know if it is true or not, I'm not a matematician Nouvalys kibitzes: :-) Lavir kibitzes: I don't understand almost nothing with numbers, for this I've never tried to make a chessprogram myself ;-) Game 6: guest667 moves: gxf4 Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: Fritz says it wins a pawn with gxf4 gxf4 Bxd3 Bxd3 Bxf4. Game 6: guest667 moves: gxf4 Diepeveen kibitzes: amazing that one of worlds most stupid programs is always getting allowed to play mankind Diepeveen kibitzes: doesn't know about bad bishops Diepeveen kibitzes: doesn't know about opposite bishops too much Diepeveen kibitzes: doesn't know abou tmany things which many other progs do know Diepeveen kibitzes: but well. Huebner is old and tactical not so strong, so that's again a close match then Hyper-Ancient kibitzes: Fritz owns the f pawn. Lavir kibitzes: it is all about money and power Diepeveen, the world go where they go Diepeveen kibitzes: Bxd3 now and draw is agreed Nouvalys kibitzes: experts say that comps of the far future will hardly reach a 30 ply depth Diepeveen kibitzes: which expert do you refer to nouvalys? Lavir kibitzes: ChessBase has power and money, and their most ancient program is Fritz Lavir kibitzes: the rest is quite easy to understand Cerebrum49 kibitzes: hello, so where is the link about "the last truth of chess" ? I was away a few seconds Nouvalys kibitzes: have to check that, sooy Diepeveen kibitzes: if fritz can't win from this old man that would be according to what i expected Nouvalys kibitzes: sorry CtID kibitzes: i think it was a misunderstanding, cerebrum49 Diepeveen kibitzes: please check before making statements which any reporter who can't do math is writing down :) Lavir kibitzes: I found only responses at it, I should look at the archives, but this will require too much time Cerebrum49 kibitzes: Lavir are you too lazy? Diepeveen kibitzes: 30 ply won't be enough to play perfect chess Diepeveen kibitzes: that's the only thing that's 100% sure :) CtID kibitzes: the post was being discussed up until 9th July. Diepeveen kibitzes: but without bob i fear? Lavir kibitzes: Diepeveen you didn't reply to the post, why? If you know that it was a lie why you didn't reply? CtID kibitzes: before that date, you need to look in the archives, or follow the posts backwards. Cerebrum49 kibitzes: its a draw! Diepeveen kibitzes: i don't have time to checkout all the garbage Diepeveen kibitzes: i join tomorrow dutch open so i have other things to do Diepeveen kibitzes: like defending my FM :) CtID kibitzes: Here we go: http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?178696 Game 6: guest667 moves: Bxd3 CtID kibitzes: YOU MUST BE A MEMBER TO READ IT!!! Lavir kibitzes: since nobody replied I thought it was exact, I don't know anything about mathematics, I've already said this Diepeveen kibitzes: ok this is a draw Creative-Doc whispers: my be an android with DIEP, FRITZ and GT2 in the head play better then all humans Diepeveen kibitzes: signing up is for free at ccc Lavir kibitzes: I was certainly not taking the think as said by myself Diepeveen kibitzes: www.icdchess.com/message.html Lavir kibitzes: I said that I neve knew if it was true or not Diepeveen kibitzes: is draw already agreed ? Cerebrum49 kibitzes: this site didnt send me the damn password till now Game 6: Game drawn Game drawn Lavir kibitzes: it takes time, it is not automated for what I know Diepeveen kibitzes: well register a new account cerebrum49 there are always problems with CCC Lavir kibitzes: diepeveen, you think the same of Junior of what you think of Fritz? i.e. do you think that all Chessbase programs are dumb? Diepeveen kibitzes: Fritz is way better as junior, BUT in chess things are not always according to what i think Diepeveen kibitzes: junior might win any game it plays vs fritz as they have prepared at home stuff. sometimes a single weak positional move kills you. Fritz plays loads of them Diepeveen kibitzes: chess is about the weakest link Diepeveen kibitzes: in that respect there are a few chessprograms with a few weak links which are hell better as any other program in most respects guest667 has stopped examining game 6. Lavir kibitzes: I'm not talkin to whom of them is better, also if Fritz wins doesn't mean that it plays better chess Diepeveen kibitzes: in reality 99.99% of all dudes here and in the world think that who plays a GM is better Lavir kibitzes: I was talking about good chess, not about who is stronger. Fritz is the dumber and it wins all the others, but this doesn't mean that it play good chess Diepeveen kibitzes: just because a company pays for that match Diepeveen kibitzes: "it gotta be as strong as that GM" Diepeveen kibitzes: well. one of the strongest programs on earth which hardly anyone knows is Ferret for example Diepeveen kibitzes: Lambchop is very strong and improving rapidly Diepeveen kibitzes: so is my own DIEP Diepeveen kibitzes: knowledge pays out in the end Lavir kibitzes: yes, I think that too Diepeveen kibitzes: but Fritz has a good book made by a 2000 rated player Diepeveen kibitzes: very active person Diepeveen kibitzes: made a book of 300k moves by writing over NCO and many other books and kicking out bad lines Lavir kibitzes: in any case it is much better to see a program with knowledge play than one that is speedy and stupid Diepeveen kibitzes: definitely not made by a GM that's acommercial lie Diepeveen kibitzes: made by Alexander Kure Diepeveen kibitzes: that's the book called deepfritz.ctg most of u guy shave at home Lavir kibitzes: yes, I know Lavir kibitzes: I don't have deep fritz Lavir kibitzes: I doesn't like the way fritz play Diepeveen kibitzes: but knowledge is a long and hard way, and only the few programs where professionally gets worked at progress a lot Diepeveen kibitzes: fritz has improved only a bit despite many professional work Diepeveen kibitzes: its endgame has improved some, but still some obvious things as you see are not inside it Diepeveen kibitzes: most are only busy scoring against other programs, and i can't blame them for that Diepeveen kibitzes: Shredder is in that respect the extreme Diepeveen kibitzes: in no test it's doing well Diepeveen kibitzes: but it wins all world champs Lavir kibitzes: but many programmers say that to know of to play chess is not important, but how can you apply knowledge if you don't know it for yourself? Diepeveen kibitzes: it has objectively seen a very good endgame Diepeveen kibitzes: i'm sure it wouldn't fall so soon for this Bxd3 trap Diepeveen kibitzes: the programmers who told you that in the past lied back then Diepeveen kibitzes: note the new sales talks of those programmers are now that knowledge is inside Diepeveen kibitzes: so they say something else as 10 years ago Diepeveen kibitzes: computers are nowadays that fast that tactics no longer are weakest link Lavir kibitzes: Christophe says this also now Diepeveen kibitzes: he said that some years ago Diepeveen kibitzes: no longer he says it Diepeveen kibitzes: phone. back soon Lavir kibitzes: hmmm, in the ultimate article he say this, you find it in the Chessbase homepage. He says that knowing chess is in many cases also unproductive. I don't know if he is saying the truth or not. Diepeveen kibitzes: hi Diepeveen kibitzes: there i am again Lavir kibitzes: ok, I torture you a bit, I neve speak to a programmer actively, sorry about it ;-) Lavir kibitzes: well, I already make the sentence, to you the reply. Diepeveen kibitzes: no prob Diepeveen kibitzes: note there are many diff opinions from which half are because of commercial reasons Diepeveen kibitzes: so it's not easy to see through them Lavir kibitzes: have you seen Chess Tiger or Gambit play? Lavir kibitzes: if yes do you think they have knowledge inside them? Diepeveen kibitzes: i know the prog of course very well Diepeveen kibitzes: the only progress of tiger was obviously that it has a bit more knowledge nowadays as it used to have Diepeveen kibitzes: in past for example it didn't know in opening that if white bishop d3 and pawn on d2 that this bishop is bad Diepeveen kibitzes: now it knows for example Diepeveen kibitzes: tiger1 already of course Creative-Doc whispers: go Deep-Robert...go :) Diepeveen kibitzes: tiger2 also has in contradiction to fritz a very rude definition as what is a bad bishop and what is a good bishop Diepeveen kibitzes: note all kind of other progs already has had this for years Lavir kibitzes: yes, I've seen it in effect. But programs don't have a long plan, do you think programmers will ever implement it? Diepeveen kibitzes: but tiger combines that with the best computerchessbook ever Creative-Doc whispers: Vincent did you meet Robert ever? Diepeveen kibitzes: made by Jeroen Noomen. Even fide rated Diepeveen kibitzes: Robert Hyatt? no Diepeveen kibitzes: he never showed up at world champs where i was so far Creative-Doc whispers: no Robert Huebner Diepeveen kibitzes: definitely Diepeveen kibitzes: i played him too Diepeveen kibitzes: not in a 40 in 2 game Diepeveen kibitzes: he's a bit old now to play those hard open tournaments Diepeveen kibitzes: i see Huebner a lot on TV Diepeveen kibitzes: one of the best TV commentators of chess Diepeveen kibitzes: together with Hort of course Creative-Doc whispers: Vlasimil is No.1 on commentators Diepeveen kibitzes: Hort definitly Diepeveen kibitzes: but he says so little always Diepeveen kibitzes: Huebner of course says more in german Diepeveen kibitzes: i follow from Netherlands of course also german television. Netherlands is so small, i have no choice but to follow WDR regurarly!! Lavir kibitzes: but do you think it is possible now (for the speed we have) to make a program that has a plan for how it play? Or maybe it is too much effort? DocStone kibitzes: but Hort is very witty with his comments Diepeveen kibitzes: you can define rude things lavir, i try to of course do that in diep Diepeveen kibitzes: but it will be never close to human intelligence Creative-Doc whispers: Hort was at Mainz Chess Classic ...really pleasant person Diepeveen kibitzes: a human can say in a few words more as a computer can in 1000 Diepeveen kibitzes: look the problem is next Diepeveen kibitzes: chess is basically a simple game from mathematical viewpoint Diepeveen kibitzes: 'only' 10^41 possibilities at most Diepeveen kibitzes: but a calculation machine like a computer still can't even play that game very well Diepeveen kibitzes: like 5 bad moves a game or so fritz made this game? DocStone kibitzes: Vincent what do you think of CM 8000?! Diepeveen kibitzes: bxd3 being a blunder Diepeveen kibitzes: so that means that if this machine would be rewritten to drive a computer Diepeveen kibitzes: you 'only' have one major accident a game or so in difficult traffic Diepeveen kibitzes: we would survive one year then if computer drives car :) Lavir kibitzes: but if you say programmers include more and more knowledge, how they do that? and how much far could you go with that? Diepeveen kibitzes: CM8k is kind of a program that made history of course because of mobility but now with induction overclassed by DIEP Diepeveen kibitzes: i'm doing that too but also have a load of positional knowledge added to that Lavir kibitzes: I'm asking this because if all the people thinks that computers will be the stronger in 10 years or so I find it impossible, knowing that chess is not only calculation Diepeveen kibitzes: last so many years i didn't lose a single game to CM8k btw, even though there was no professional work done at DIEP by then Diepeveen kibitzes: gotta go. supper. see you guys. in channel 64 i have plenty of time to chat later on this evening Lavir kibitzes: ok Lavir kibitzes: see you next time, thanks for the time ;-) DocStone kibitzes: thx vincent Creative-Doc whispers: Vincent you plug this channel :) Lavir kibitzes: in fin Lavir kibitzes: sorry ;-) Creative-Doc whispers: black won? ============================================================================== Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rebel is very weak in endgame Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: exchanging is ok for loek Kipje kibitzes: Diep is much better of course in the endgame ALTEFEAR kibitzes: Diepeveen(FM)[1] kibitzes: rebel is very weak in endgame ALTEFEAR kibitzes: HAHAHHAHAHHAHA TwinThreat kibitzes: lol TwinThreat kibitzes: kicks diep into space Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: see NIC Kipje kibitzes: hmmm he's in FM Kipje kibitzes: he MUST be strong:) Kipje kibitzes: an TheGolem kibitzes: ne7 a threat? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: [welcoming Dan Wulff] !! coward(IM) kibitzes: Well, even IM's can be very weak kipje jensk(IM) kibitzes: And...very strong anti-comp-play by van Wely in this game Kipje kibitzes: nah...IM's are the strongest Kipje kibitzes: IM's are from another planet to me ChessDogg kibitzes: just got back....what is going on? is Wely rockin? TwinThreat kibitzes: vely was winning yesterday even Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek played great this game TerminalDeath whispers: Karpov will win NAO :) ChessDogg kibitzes: is Staunton in the house? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: all programs mis this kind of buildup against king Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it is no shame that rebel falls for it ALTEFEAR kibitzes: Diep would have "seen" it for sure Kipje kibitzes: yeah altefear coward(IM) kibitzes: didnt Kramnik play in the same way against some program? Kipje kibitzes: can i buy 1 copy of Diep? TwinThreat kibitzes: diep stupid:P Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kramnik never played a match vs a program so far Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: except if you mean blitz here coward(IM) kibitzes: no match, a tournament game TwinThreat kibitzes: yeah TwinThreat kibitzes: aagnist junior Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: must be long ago TwinThreat kibitzes: 2 yrs griskov kibitzes: Kramnik never played here Sjeng(C) kibitzes: dortmund 2000...he also stonewalled it Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: level of programs improved drastically last few years coward(IM) kibitzes: Piket also beat that program in the same tournament TwinThreat kibitzes: yep Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that's a 2000 tournament coward Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no compare with level in 2002 TwinThreat kibitzes: but prgs continue to have block against this setup adolphus kibitzes: Dortmund I think TwinThreat kibitzes: they r toast when u play this Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and it ain't the faster hardware Burgershirt whispers: the computer disconnected and forfeits Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: dortmund was 30 minutes all or something? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no slow game xakxak kibitzes: no 2 hours Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: AFAIK dortmund was 30 minutes all TwinThreat kibitzes: no man TerminalDeath whispers: know your opponent=3/4 of the battle is won xakxak kibitzes: ok lets see Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: good comments terminal TwinThreat kibitzes: dortmund had regualr time controls griskov kibitzes: I'm sure rebel is going to play a ridiculous move Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qd7 only move probably Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qf7 same idea xakxak kibitzes: Junior 6 in Dortmund 2000 classical chess Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: yes that's 2 years ago. TwinThreat kibitzes: so? beri-beri kibitzes: Qf7 and hoping v W will miss something Zek(*) kibitzes: Kramnik - Deep Junior "examine Dormund2000 %20" CherrylandCafe kibitzes: Who's using a 'puter? How many hundredths of a pawn is White ahead, does your 'puter think? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: prevoius year the win of fritz in that tournament was rapid ches Kipje kibitzes: forgot the T zek Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Cherry 4 hundred :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: don't compare junior with rebel rbnn kibitzes: this game, is over. TerminalDeath whispers: examine Dortmund2000 %20 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: junior is focussing upon a real deep tactical search using 'preprocessor' tables with filled in chess knowledge before search Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rebel is evaluating positions after a search line Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: major difference between positional and strategical play then Kipje kibitzes: sure Kipje kibitzes: now back to the game ok Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so playing junior you can easily play for a strong bishop Kipje kibitzes: our Rebel is getting spanked Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: as it doesn't know it griskov kibitzes: this game is already over Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no GM knew it back in 2000 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: against rebel that doesn't work Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: seeing loek win this is going to be real cool Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it is NOT easy Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: let me assure you that if i have white and Loek black, that outcome is a draw for sure Kipje kibitzes: sure ALTEFEAR kibitzes: let me assure you, you would loose easily TwinThreat kibitzes: ur weak then beri-beri kibitzes: what does Diep think of Qf7 Kipje kibitzes: you would be destroyed of course Kipje kibitzes: even i've destroyed you in blitz Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: oh dear qf7? ne7 1-0 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: my mistake Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it wants qd7 TerminalDeath whispers: u lose a loose pawn, spellcheck Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rebel will never do that knightmares kibitzes: Qd7 seems to fail to Ne7, too Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: the dude is again dead slow updating homepage MrBug kibitzes: argh i got disconnected Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i was there previous match Kipje kibitzes: you missed some very interesting statements by Diepeveen Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: he wanted to only put online moves after he had 'analyzed them' at his laptop with fritz5.32 MrBug kibitzes: what's the difference between Qd7 Ne7+ and Qf7 Ne7+? ChessRailer kibitzes: come on guys...con ganas vedel kibitzes: Rebel have to do nothing but do it well...not so easy Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so explaining moves from big Rebel at a big puter using a few seconds a move fritz 5.32 griskov kibitzes: I think a5!! only move :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: very stubborn guys Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: the organizers ChessRailer kibitzes: sin miedo Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: regrettably one of them died Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: one is left ChessRailer kibitzes: sin miedo compadre TerminalDeath whispers: sinverguenza ChessRailer kibitzes: hechale huevos TwinThreat kibitzes: when will we be looking at diep vs some top 10 guy? ChessDogg kibitzes: wow..i just saw guest1015 trash several GM's ...he must be the mysterious guest that some think is Bobby Fischer!!!! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a5 or whatever move like that then g5 Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Rxh1+ GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 27...Rxh1+: Traveler guest1401 (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Procyon kibitzes: RxR, QxR, Kg7 holds for now, doesn't it? AlmostDecent kibitzes: It first has to beat a top 1000 guy. Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Qxh1 MrBug kibitzes: Qxh1 Kg7 next Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rebel is joking here i bet Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: my score jumps up now for white AmyQuest whispers: the only move in this position Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: let's wait a little to be sure ChessRailer kibitzes: come on guys...con ganas ChessRailer kibitzes: hechale huevos Kipje kibitzes: what does Diep think of this position Diepeveen? Burgershirt kibitzes: no tengo beri-beri kibitzes: Q*h1 Kg7 Nf8?? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: +3.2 ChessRailer kibitzes: hahaha Burger Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: was +2.9 for qd7 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rising slowly the score Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: +3.4 now CapaH kibitzes: why is Van Wely crushing Rebel today but wasn't crushing Rebel yesterday? Burgershirt kibitzes: horizon effect? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it wants nf7. kg7 then g5 seems a big problem TwinThreat kibitzes: he has whites today Burgershirt kibitzes: he was at least equal yesterday, and appeared to blunder Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: yeah i'm tactical bit stronger than rebel here. bit faster hardware too Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nf7 Sjeng(C) kibitzes: he pushed too much yesterday. he had a draw in his hands but blew it by trying to win PhishMaster kibitzes: Nh8!! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qh5!? MrBug kibitzes: Nh8 looks good MrBug kibitzes: at a glance AlmostDecent kibitzes: Nge5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: yes Nh8!? Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Qh5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: Nh8 +4.0 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qh5 or nh8 MrBug kibitzes: now Kg7 AlmostDecent kibitzes: I had a higher score than that for Nge5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rxh1 tactical blunder Burgershirt kibitzes: NOW he threatens Nh8 ChessRailer kibitzes: andale...haci se hace...viva Van_Weekly AlmostDecent kibitzes: Blunder? You mean it went from losing to losinger? benwyvis kibitzes: black should resign.. Burgershirt kibitzes: I suspect horizon effect Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Qd7 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qd7 was very tough almostdecent ChessDogg kibitzes: lol TwinThreat kibitzes: vely smashed rebel today Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: qd7 instead of rxh1 then white doesn't have this huge attack MrBug kibitzes: so what now? Burgershirt kibitzes: It's still holding here. We are too busy saying it's lost to look for resources Rebel2002 whispers: van weakly??? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: white has choice now griskov kibitzes: g5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: nf3-h4!? AlmostDecent kibitzes: Qd7 qould have lost ugly to Ne7 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: g5 is the logical move of course Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: nh4 qc7 ne5 it wants myocardial kibitzes: weakly=Freudian Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that's not a loek combination Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek wants to win without much tactics Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: GMs underestimate their own tactical abilities when they have a won position ChessDogg kibitzes: Loek, I am your father!! ChessRailer kibitzes: Come to the Dark Side Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: how does the jediknight cut the wood here with his sable? AlmostDecent kibitzes: In fact Rebel probably saw that Qd7 ran against Ne7 and that is why it chose Rxh1, though it changes nothing of the result. beri-beri kibitzes: I guess Loek wants one more pawn Kipje kibitzes: in fact i think EVERY MOVE would lose ChessDogg kibitzes: you mean a Saber? Scharftenstein kibitzes: what is Loek's best move now? Burgershirt kibitzes: The Howard Cosell of chess MrBug kibitzes: Qd7 Ne7 Rxe7? ChessDogg kibitzes: Look at that Monkey go!!! AlmostDecent kibitzes: adn then Qh3 MrBug ChessRailer kibitzes: I stand corrected knightmares kibitzes: I like Nge5 now TwinThreat kibitzes: loek into time trouble will be = rebel wins MrBug kibitzes: oh TwinThreat kibitzes: play faster loeky EternalGame kibitzes: Ngh4 MrBug kibitzes: Rh7 no longer works Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 27..Qd7 Ne7?? 28.Rxe7 = Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 27..Qf7?? 28.Ne7! 1-0 ChessRailer kibitzes: he's keeping a low key on his pawn storm ChessDogg kibitzes: he's at the 40, he's at th 30 ...Look at that Monkey go! this cost Cossell his job Olrik kibitzes: screen says 120 0, so no increment, is this true? AlmostDecent kibitzes: Sorry Diepeveen but 27.Qd7?? Ne7! Rxe7 Qh3! 1-0 Xpander kibitzes: 30.Qh8+?? Nxh8 0-1 Olrik kibitzes: very stupid to play comps without increment knightmares kibitzes: Nge5 fxe5 Qh7+ Kf8 g5 PhishMaster kibitzes: Nfh4 a5 (for example) Ne7 Nhg6 Ke8 Ng8game ChessDogg kibitzes: anyone remember that "Look at that monkey go" statement my Howard Cossell?? EternalGame kibitzes: Ngh4 with ideaa Qh7+, Rf8, Ng6* and so on. RossA kibitzes: is there a rule against R returning to h7, AlmostDecent? Burgershirt kibitzes: I was that monkey ChessRailer kibitzes: No one here does Dogg...bunch of chess geeks here TerminalDeath whispers: chessdogg who cares ChessDogg kibitzes: lol PhishMaster kibitzes: Yes, and HC lost his job for it. Burgershirt kibitzes: and I'm still pissed MrBug kibitzes: ok in this position jensk(IM) kibitzes: Qf4!? Kg7 f5!? MrBug kibitzes: if van wely doesn't see the Nfh4 and Ne5 idea MrBug kibitzes: what will he do? MrBug kibitzes: g5? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 27..Qd7 28.ne7? rxe7 29.Qh3 Nf7 there is no mate ChessDogg kibitzes: easy up a bit Terminal...you to Up Tight....need a greased BB treatment beri-beri kibitzes: g5 seems obvious ChessRailer kibitzes: hahha...more like a greased marble treatment Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: whereas after Rxh1? white has a mate attack jensk(IM) kibitzes: Qh4!? Kg7 f5 e5 g5! looks strong ChessRailer kibitzes: ostrich egg treatment jinja whispers: what's all this rxe7, what r? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: which loek didn't miss but he missed more accurate way to mate myocardial kibitzes: Hey, Dogg remember Jimmy the Greek saying "...white antebellum women liked black slaves because of their physical size." Burgershirt kibitzes: My god I've got a lot of people on the cens list TerminalDeath whispers: hehe Burgershirt kibitzes: The Jimmy the Greek thing was funny. Kipje kibitzes: who cares Kipje kibitzes: white will win anyway ChessGM-Lemming whispers: the jimmy thing is very racist Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: nf3-h4 is the shot here myocardial kibitzes: Jimmy liked horseracing the best Burgershirt kibitzes: Why the heck wouldn't the ignorant bastards who owned people as slaves and treated them like animals, Burgershirt kibitzes: not breed them like animals? Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Ngh4 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 30.Ngh4: EternalGame (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: channel 97 for you burgershirt Joel2000 kibitzes: hmm EternalGame kibitzes: I'm inspired today! Joel2000 kibitzes: What is Rebel's FIDE? Kipje kibitzes: any admin around? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: computers do not have a FIDE Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: forbidden by FIDE Zek set *van_Wely(GM)'s clock to 00:19:00 Zek set *RebelCentury(C's clock to 00:41:00 Joel2000 kibitzes: oh Burgershirt kibitzes: any admin around? Cucumuch kibitzes: waahhhhh, just 19 mintues for Loek Joel2000 kibitzes: Does is have any kind of rating?? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for 10 moves that's ok cucumuch Zek(*) kibitzes: 19 minutes for 10 mives beri-beri kibitzes: will rebel play a move like Nh8? Zek(*) kibitzes: 60 minutes added at move 40, 30 seconds added on each move after move 60 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: nd8 here i'd expect Joel2000 kibitzes: Does Rebel have any kind of rating? AlmostDecent kibitzes: Feed this to Diep and tell me it's score: Qd7 Ne7 Rxe7 Qh3 Nf7 g5! I have a line winning the queen for the knight so that should be pretty good. Megasalud whispers: 4000 ++ jensk(IM) kibitzes: Nh8! Burgershirt kibitzes: Loek is using his time well, Rebel is quickly finding the forced moves vedel kibitzes: éval please Burgershirt kibitzes: Just like Jimmy used to Joel2000 kibitzes: I wonder what Rebel's FIDE would be if he had one. Burgershirt kibitzes: Go Jimmy! MrBug kibitzes: Nh8! forces white to find Ng6 Nf7 Nfh4! Cucumuch kibitzes: is it right that they play in Schroeders office? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: almostdecent that didn't change score that line at all. whereas Rxh7 i get above 4.0 soon Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rxh1 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: look on the board Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and see Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: how black is getting toasted now AlmostDecent kibitzes: Then Diep is slow in tactics. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: even safe moves like ng6-h4 keep the pressure Cucumuch kibitzes: Diepeeven, do u think that the rebel-company makes good money? Cucumuch kibitzes: or is the market for comp-progy dead? AlmostDecent kibitzes: What is the line after g5? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: sorry i am not going to give away private information of Rebel BV Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ask Rebel BV knightmares kibitzes: after ..Nh8 f5 ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: info@rebel.nl Burgershirt kibitzes: That's a "they're in trouble" statement if I ever heard one Cucumuch kibitzes: are there any statistics about the chess-software market? Zek(*) kibitzes: They are playing at Centre Céramique, Avenue Céramique 50 in Maastricht, the Netherlands. rbnn kibitzes: if ...nh8 then g5! wins Kipje kibitzes: yep adolphus kibitzes: beautiful address! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that's the most southern location of Netherlands rbnn kibitzes: netherlands is the best country in the world. crag kibitzes: just got back how is he doing ChessGM-Lemming whispers: is it near tillborg? Cucumuch kibitzes: hehehehe u mean the worst one Go-Steelers36 kibitzes: Donkberg myocardial kibitzes: How do ceramics and chess mix? Kipje kibitzes: is tilburg in the south? SeriousGacky kibitzes: do they play on a real board or on a computer monitor? newsti kibitzes: this game shows the true level of computers Cucumuch kibitzes: always windy and rain there ChessGM-Lemming whispers: yes, excellent art museum there TerminalDeath whispers: n lots of brothels Cucumuch kibitzes: and a lot of joints there Cucumuch kibitzes: and very dangerous in the night AlmostDecent kibitzes: My score is +6.63 which looks pretty good after 27...Qd7? 28.Ne7+ Rxe7 29.Qh3 Nf7 30.g5! fxg5 31.Nxg5 Kf8 32.Nh7 Ke8 33.Nxf6+ winning the queen. Cucumuch kibitzes: because off too much dealer and fixer EternalGame kibitzes: Anyone know the caracteristics of the harware, rebel in runing? silanov whispers: netherlands are a popular holiday vacation - mainly for their coffee shops Kipje kibitzes: lets agree Diep is a weak program Burgershirt kibitzes: Heehee DRAGONLORD kibitzes: Did VW win yesterday ? beri-beri kibitzes: Rebel isn't thinking but calculating newsti kibitzes: he went nuts yesterday Cucumuch kibitzes: yes, VW on yesterday, Ford was second and GM third! Zek(*) kibitzes: van Wely lost game 1 "examine Rebel2002 %1" to replay it DRAGONLORD kibitzes: hehe DRAGONLORD kibitzes: why he choose this loosy opening ? rbnn kibitzes: i cannot believe how badly rebel played the opening. rbnn kibitzes: Nxg3 was bizarre! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: the center where they play is in fact the local town hall Zek(*) kibitzes: http://www.reliefweb.int/w/map.nsf/wByCLatest/F1F8F470F00004A585256A30007556D0?Opendocument for a map of the Netherlands -- Maastrict is at the very southern part Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: Kipje shut up knightmares kibitzes: ..Nh8 f5 Qf7 fxe6 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: diep won the world title blitz nearly Burgershirt kibitzes: If you create no targets, computers don't know how to swim Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rebel joined there too Joel2000 kibitzes: hmm Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: fritz too Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: everyone did Cucumuch kibitzes: but nearly is nothing DRAGONLORD kibitzes: junior too hehe Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: except ferret Joel2000 kibitzes: Who will win Kramnik or Fritz?? Kipje kibitzes: why should i shut up?? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: goliath won because i forfeited against it Cucumuch kibitzes: everyone " wins nearly everything " Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: otherwise i would have had world title Kipje kibitzes: u're filling this whole channel with very uninteresting statements Joel2000 kibitzes: Who will win? Kramink or Deep Fritz?? newsti kibitzes: your problem diepevenn Scharftenstein kibitzes: Diepeveen, wat moet loek spelen? AlmostDecent kibitzes: WHy did you forfeit? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it is very stupid to say that my program is weak Burgershirt kibitzes: I almost won there the time I bothered to show up Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: just because rebel plays a GM and i didn't yet Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Scharft: rebel is to move :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i didn't have the financial resources to play rebel newsti kibitzes: all puters suck diepeveen Burgershirt kibitzes: don't take it personally, Diep, Kipje(C) just miscalculated AmyQuest whispers: Kramnik for sure, if nothing strange happens Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: anyway kipje is censored now AlmostDecent kibitzes: Never said it was weak. You're the one who said Qd7 is =. +6.88 winning the queen isn't = that's all. TerminalDeath whispers: i hate it when people call me stupid newsti kibitzes: cens me too ChessDogg kibitzes: ChessDogg would like to Note that not everything is based on rating Kipje kibitzes: exactly rbnn kibitzes: does rebel have a customer book for this match ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: look at the board position. white is still having long term pressure rbnn kibitzes: i mean a custom book. Burgershirt kibitzes: wow, he showed you... Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek missed Ne5 as so many things Kipje kibitzes: you were saying Rebel played sucky moves while DIep's suggestion lost a full queen Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but he still wins ChessDogg kibitzes: so stop asking what someone's rating is AmyQuest whispers: yes, specially done for Noomen Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for loek it is important to keep pressure Kipje kibitzes: loek is just playing solid, thats all EndisHere whispers: whats whits plan? Wesley kibitzes: whats the diff between a 3 peice and a 4 piece tablebase, for example? Joel2000 kibitzes: Sup, Chessdogg Burgershirt kibitzes: Loek is apparently a turd, let's demote him Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: size of it wesley Sjeng(C) kibitzes: one piece :) crag kibitzes: what can black do? AmyQuest whispers: by Noomen against van Wely Wesley kibitzes: one piece meaning what? Megasalud whispers: chess-school..... Wesley kibitzes: i dont get it Kipje kibitzes: and Diep's moves DID lose a queen:) didnt it? rbnn kibitzes: seriously i don't understand why black played ...Nxg3 in the opening. That seemed like an obvious losing move. ChessDogg kibitzes: u cant put a number (rating) on things like character and personality and virtue CZacharias kibitzes: Is it a serious question, Wesley? EndisHere whispers: black does have the two bishops Wesley kibitzes: yeah what is meant by 3 pieces rbnn kibitzes: even for a computer, the win of the pawn was not hard to see and it opened the h file against the king. beri-beri kibitzes: rbnn: i agree N*g3 was very bad Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: nd8 is +4.5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for white vedel kibitzes: Nxg3 & c4 are stupid moves Kipje kibitzes: i'm waiting for an answer baby CZacharias kibitzes: Wesley: 3 piece tablebases are tablebases which contain all endgames with at most 3 pieces: KQK, KRK, KBK... TerminalDeath whispers: hehe Zek(*) kibitzes: king queen vs king is a 3 piece endgame membertou whispers: not for long EndisHere whispers: what is whites plan here ChessDogg kibitzes: wow Diepeveen(FM) your rating is 2420....do you have a character/personality rating? what is it? Wesley kibitzes: any combo of 3 pieces? Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nh8 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 30...Nh8: guest326 knightmares guest1026 (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) ChessDogg kibitzes: sup joel..missed your kib rbnn kibitzes: well c4 is a typical computer mistake that is easy to understand. But even a computer should not open an h-file against its king, and the doubled pawns it could see would be traded MrBug kibitzes: now Ng6! CZacharias kibitzes: Yes Wesley Joel2000 kibitzes: hi Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: g5 Wesley kibitzes: how high does it go? ChessDogg kibitzes: yes g6!!! benwyvis kibitzes: crush! Wesley kibitzes: why not just put every game in a database ChessDogg kibitzes: g5 i mean Sterile kibitzes: any incerements? are clocks accurate? Zek? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: f5 was very interesting NDA(C) whispers: +-2.72 (d=15, Fritz 7) Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: f5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 31...f5: guest1026 Diepeveen (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) ChessDogg kibitzes: - means black is up? Cucumuch kibitzes: now whites bishop is out of play too benwyvis kibitzes: g6 Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Ne5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek has a winning plan simply beri-beri kibitzes: I think Bh7 Qe8 was better than g5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and he doesn't care for tactical shots Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: very smart NDA(C) whispers: Bxe5 Kipje kibitzes: fast thinking diepeveen Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: yes bxe5 Golem(C) whispers: +3.48 (S6) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 31.f5 was pretty much a tactical shot Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Bxe5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 32...Bxe5: guest1026 NDA guest1459 guest397 (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Wesley kibitzes: what is S6 Wesley kibitzes: , why did u say that Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: dxe5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 33.dxe5: LSV guest1026 (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: which pawn i wonder now ChessDogg kibitzes: Super 6 a stop and go store Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: now it's not predictable what computer will play Cucumuch kibitzes: what the hell is a stop and go store??? vedel kibitzes: now Rebel can play perfectly Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Bc8 JasonEvans whispers: um you stop buy something and go ? Wesley kibitzes: the computer lingo is rough Sjeng(C) kibitzes: hmm ChessDogg kibitzes: oh this darn europeans...dont have stop and go stores Sterile kibitzes: this is just over benwyvis kibitzes: Nf3-d4 Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nf3 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 34.Nf3: LSV (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Wesley kibitzes: more like what isnt a stop and go store? Wesley kibitzes: do they prevent u from leaving?? JasonEvans whispers: throw the towel in black ! ChessDogg kibitzes: lol vedel kibitzes: if draw, match is over lol knightmares kibitzes: It seems VanWely is determined to win without tactics. Maybe at last black could get some counterplay ? a5 ? slow - but better than nothing coldplay kibitzes: is wely playing on a board or is he behind a comp? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: on a real board Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: with an arbiter nearby Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and like 2 people watching simonski kibitzes: what means it behaves bad ? ChessDogg kibitzes: you see Americans live on the open road...driving is a big thing here...so stop and go stores are quick access stores along highways where you pump gas get some grub and run Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and on the other side of the board Ed Schroeder operating Rebel Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: who walks away a lot smoking a cigarette Wesley kibitzes: well i am american Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: which is forbidden in the government building Wesley kibitzes: i just wasnt aware of this ChessDogg kibitzes: of arabic descent? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and when i was around Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and ed wanted to smoke Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it was forbidden someone else than him operate the computer MrBug kibitzes: i think rebel's operator should change it to speculative mode Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: though at world champs Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: this happens a lot Cucumuch kibitzes: heheh, stop and go sote !! heheheh who needs stop and go stores ?? Kipje kibitzes: who cares? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that if i go he does a few moves for me RossA kibitzes: exactly, ChessDog, many nver get farther away from the wheel than that S-and-G cash register Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and if he leaves i play a few moves for his program ChessDogg kibitzes: non-europeans do Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: because it's impossible to cheat Olrik kibitzes: Nice, such a knight on d4, but what is it doing there, is there any break-trough? JasonEvans whispers: im british but stop and go stores sound cool ! NDA(C) whispers: +-2.16 (d=16, Fritz 7) ChessDogg kibitzes: yes....its a great idea of convenience crag kibitzes: jason, r u british or r u welsh Cucumuch kibitzes: hehe poor folk, doesn,t have time to go shopping !!! ChessDogg kibitzes: very successful money makers JasonEvans whispers: welsh british Wesley kibitzes: what food at a gas station... wow vedel kibitzes: here, i say draw 'cause Rebel play at 2900 elo here JasonEvans whispers: whats the difference Cucumuch kibitzes: sitting the whole day in the car!! beri-beri kibitzes: Olrik: yes after Nd4 black has no moves whereas white can pick up a pawn CLONEMASTER kibitzes: overpriced junk food dealers is all stop and go stores are crag kibitzes: dont mention the rugby then ChessDogg kibitzes: Cucumunch? you prolly french right? JasonEvans whispers: rugby ????????? RossA kibitzes: "Eat here and get gas" JasonEvans whispers: whats that ?????? Olrik kibitzes: white pickes up a pawn after Nd4? where? Megasalud whispers: gas in your....... Cucumuch kibitzes: where is farance???? CLONEMASTER kibitzes: gas up, get smokes, eat ****, gas out Wesley kibitzes: oh my Wesley kibitzes: to much gas crag kibitzes: yeh sorry, you forgot just like the team, better against france though JasonEvans whispers: im hoping someone will build a stop and go store near me soon ! EndisHere whispers: il say qf7 Cucumuch kibitzes: hehehehe, both, the BIG car AND the BIG driver get filled in a stop and go store !! hehhe rbnn kibitzes: one white plan would be nd4, Qh4, Bd1-h5 Elkitano kibitzes: :D knightmares kibitzes: how about sth like a5 , then Qh7 and Ng6 and try to build a fortress ? petem kibitzes: I will STOP watching for a while because I have to GO membertou whispers: good idea Wesley kibitzes: dont europeans have gas station, im sure they have though to add candy and whatnot Cucumuch kibitzes: do u also have stop and go hairdresser??? Wesley kibitzes: thats all this is JasonEvans whispers: i dont care wales are gonna win the soccer world cup oops ! ChessDogg kibitzes: its official Cucu has samesex orientation Olrik kibitzes: Very delicate postion to handle with white, blocking everything might easily lead to a draw Cucumuch kibitzes: and stop and go fitnesscenters??? gsb kibitzes: poor van Wely (poor humankind!) is not going to win this, no way, no how. newsti kibitzes: i don't think so olrik crag kibitzes: we have stop and go vasectomy shops EndisHere whispers: whites queen must go its to dangerous there beri-beri kibitzes: first Nd4 or g6 immediately, what will Loek do? Cucumuch kibitzes: hehehe chessdog, this message will go to lateknight and u have to rest a bit !!! CLONEMASTER kibitzes: stop go penzoil Olrik kibitzes: What is white's plan? Anybody see a plan for white, not just moves knightmares kibitzes: then maybe Bd7 and Be8 if necessary - maybe REBEL has still chances here ChessDogg kibitzes: LaurnaBabbit Vasectomy Drive Thru JasonEvans whispers: does it matter mr berry this one is gone !!!!!!!!!!!1 TerminalDeath whispers: lols @ petem ChessDogg kibitzes: typical Cucu...person of your inferior quality JasonEvans whispers: where do you go after you've stopped im confused ? Wesley kibitzes: listen dont u have a damn gas station over there?? TerminalDeath whispers: when ur lost where do u begin? JasonEvans whispers: no we have petrol stations CLONEMASTER kibitzes: you go to the next stop rbnn kibitzes: i'm surprised rebel lasted this long actually. Olrik kibitzes: to all people who are talking bullsh* to eachother: go find your own channel Sterile kibitzes: if i was lateknight i would ban anyone that was childish enough to whine about someone elses language EndisHere whispers: qh7! draw Cucumuch kibitzes: i have a new topic for my thesis now: the influence of stop and go stores to the falling IQ of a whole continent Wesley kibitzes: people r too sensitive JasonEvans whispers: hee hee ChessDogg kibitzes: thank you Sterile ....LOL @ Cucu membertou whispers: heh heh EndisHere whispers: oh no qe8 silanov whispers: stop & go, stop & go, stop & go from the cradle to the grave Sterile kibitzes: lol membertou whispers: better yet silanov whispers: what a life! TerminalDeath whispers: lolz! ChessDogg kibitzes: this continent will prolly have to bail you out again in another war or thru an economic package JasonEvans whispers: do you have to stop slowly or quickly im confused ? CLONEMASTER kibitzes: drive right through Wesley kibitzes: when ur car is low on gas where do u go jason? JasonEvans whispers: um Petrel(*) kibitzes: OK here's a plan: (a) put Kt on d4 (b) put Q on f6 (This will virtually Zek set *van_Wely(GM)'s clock to 01:04:00 Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Playing agaisnt a computer consists of two phases: 1) getting a completly won position b) screwing it all up JasonEvans whispers: um ok Zek set *RebelCentury(C's clock to 01:16:00 hasse whispers: Ka3-b4-c5-d6 or Ka3-b4-a5-a6 Adlo kibitzes: Ka3, a5; Kb2 + Be2 + a4 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: mut onhan tää asema niin voitettu että pitää vaan löytää oikeet siirrot Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a4 with b4 compeltely winning says diep rbnn kibitzes: yeah, this seems pretty much over. nice play be van wely. Somnus(C) kibitzes: The only advantage for Rebel here is it's anti-GM code... if it feels that the position is lost when opening the game, it will keep it closed and swindle the opponent until it sees it can have an advantage in opening it Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: though it doens't find a4 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but if i move it Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: score goes slowly up silanov whispers: yes frozenshade, I agree newsti kibitzes: wow diepeveen maybe your comp doesn't suck after all Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: black will be always faster of course Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kh5-e3 goes slow JasonEvans whispers: instead of kg7-g6 black should of gone kf8-e8 Cucumuch kibitzes: Ka3 and than a5 newsti kibitzes: oh you have to show a4 for it? it sucks Cucumuch kibitzes: and what,s than? FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: position is completely won for white, just have to find right moves, a4 looks like quickest way Mating-Idea kibitzes: nice FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: a4 a6 Ka3 +- a4 bxa4 b4 +- MrBug kibitzes: how does a4 win? EternalGame kibitzes: a4, a6 - then? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a4 bxa4 b4 nc8 ka3 nb6 b5 kh7 ugh ugh kb4! first MrBug kibitzes: oh Cucumuch kibitzes: no, u will see that it,s not won hasse whispers: Ka3 a5 bxc! JasonEvans whispers: yeah a4 should wrap it up MrBug kibitzes: a4 bxa4 b4! ALTEFEAR kibitzes: a4 ba4 ba4 a5 draw MrBug kibitzes: ohhhhhh Petrel kibitzes: MrBug Nice Jeopardy question :-) Mating-Idea kibitzes: id like to see GM Seirawan hes the best to kill them computer loaded of gm games newsti kibitzes: tää on muuten jännää ku ei tarvi muutaku olla titteli nii saa nää pöntöt kuuntelemaan Esen kibitzes: a4 ba4 bc4 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: nih ketään ei kiinnosta sun mielipide ny MrBug kibitzes: i am falling asleep with vanwely's play FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: meniks sult handle vai Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Be2 newsti kibitzes: niin se menee newsti kibitzes: joo Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: mating-idea may i note that Loek is not exactly weaker than Yasser. Loek is world top 20 Rivaldo kibitzes: a4 a6 ChessGM-Lemming whispers: tell frozenshade do you know why jon tisdall hasn't been around icc lately? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: this isn't a stupid idea either Cucumuch kibitzes: the time of Seirawan is gone some years ago Mating-Idea kibitzes: diep, true, he hasnt been playing like a top 20 past months though. Somnus(C) kibitzes: Loek has not been playing like top 20 in some time.. Olrik kibitzes: Van Wely beat Yasser last Saturday in Dordrecht 2-0 newsti kibitzes: what is the idea diepeveen? Sjeng(C) kibitzes: hmm, he had one bad tournament? Mating-Idea kibitzes: diep, but a top 20 still may not find the proper way to beat a comp Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that's why he blew it yesterday mating :) Cucumuch kibitzes: he can just be a star in america, but not in europe or somewhere else Sjeng(C) kibitzes: bit quick to write him off for that Whitecloak kibitzes: They changed his name to Loek Van Weakie lately... Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: this 2312 top 10000 world guy has no probs beating compu's by drawing them. they blow it then somewhere Austin420 kibitzes: What happened in yesterdays game with Rebel/Loek? Cucumuch kibitzes: all the unseciessfull chessgrandpas going to the states and are stars there 8-) Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng, in his last interview he stated his mind has been elsewhere lately.. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek was at least drawn Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but then loek wanted to win too quick Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nc8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: he walked with king unprotected Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and then a queen won for rebel of course Austin420 kibitzes: Loek lost that game?? newsti kibitzes: thanks for the info Mating-Idea kibitzes: oh Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: loek had BBPP vs Q Mating-Idea kibitzes: thanks for the info diep :) FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: but big time trouble was involved in yesterday's game, right? Austin420 kibitzes: Wow. Mating-Idea kibitzes: it looked very strong i liked black newsti kibitzes: vittu käsittämätöntä miten sen voi kätellä Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: what? Ferrolho whispers: a4 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: se kävi liian ahneeks mun mielest Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: after ka3 rebel might play a6 NDA(C) whispers: +-2.16 Cucumuch kibitzes: can u see this in duch TV diep ??? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: my god newsti kibitzes: thegreedyone :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: oh it will find a5 in the end FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: I think that loek lost yesterday because he got too greedy in the end and it was time trouble anyway duendecilla(GM) kibitzes: eiköhän pidetä kibbaukset ihan puhtaasti suomena ettei tuu mitään epäilyksiä FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: nii siis mitäs pallerost Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: time trouble no excuse for going with king to c2 frozen knightmares kibitzes: I like Nc8 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: myin sille handleni duendecilla(GM) kibitzes: satasellapa tietenkin newsti kibitzes: ai se on pallero! ihmettelin vähän sun 1-minuteja Cucumuch kibitzes: does someone speak Oaklanguage here? Mating-Idea kibitzes: hehe FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: well I can imagine myself being pissed off by stupid comp who thinks that it can still be won and trying to win myself EternalGame kibitzes: Van-Wely have a clear idea about how winning this ending? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: never leave a computer combine in far endgames is my tip. they brilliant with queens FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: joo en pelannu sil pariin kuukauteen ja ku pallero tartti handlee ni myin 15 taalaan newsti kibitzes: joo Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i disliked Be2 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: but it's pretty clear that endgame was =+/= anyway rbnn kibitzes: be2 seemed pointless to me too. newsti kibitzes: you said it was a good plan earlier diepeveen Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but well knowing loek he doesn't mind playing Bd1 to just SHOW he is at least better :) Ebok(IM) kibitzes: a4!? LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: maybe he wants a4 bxa4 bxc4 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: now white's completely winning ofcourse, the big idea after Be2 seems to be to play a4 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a4 then it will go a6 i guess EternalGame kibitzes: a4, a6 sure Magic-Boubou kibitzes: then the square b4 is his MrBug kibitzes: a4 a6 Ka3 again EternalGame kibitzes: comp. style FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: maybe axb5 first and only then Ka3 newsti kibitzes: a4 a6 a5 for example is totally winning for white LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: a4 a6 axb axb then Ka3-b4 etc Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: yes looks sufficient to win for white Ebok(IM) kibitzes: looks like Wely should win Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: wow a4 a6 ka3 +4.1 now Cucumuch kibitzes: maybe +4,1 is a bug MrBug kibitzes: diepeveen is it even better than when the bishop was on d1? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: seems black has no better than a6 NDA(C) whispers: 42.a4 a6 43.axb5 axb5 (+-1.97, Fritz 7, d=17) Mating-Idea kibitzes: maybe not his program is very strong in endgames daisuke kibitzes: this is +- Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a4 bxa4? bxc4 +4.2 LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: this is not so much a position for calculating, it's clear that once we have the king on b4 or c5 we win lat1(C) whispers: whites king infiltrates FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: wow, only now took a look at opening of this game, pretty neat example of anti-comp strategy Somnus(C) kibitzes: I love my internet.. downloaded all the tablebases from Hyatt's ftp in less than 3.5 hours Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: a4 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 42.a4: guest1254 Ferrolho guest1056 Diepeveen MrBug newsti LazyPawn NDA (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: now i am interested in what rebel is going to play here newsti kibitzes: joo vittu nää peltipurkit on ihan surkeita edelleen FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: nii siis kuka muuten levitti semmost kyseenalaista infoo et mä oisin se ahnejätkä Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: a6 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 42...a6: guest1254 NDA (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) rbnn kibitzes: yes now i see the point of Be2. it was a very good move, stopping ba benwyvis kibitzes: Ka3 membertou whispers: english please newsti kibitzes: sun handlehan se nyt on, kaikki kait sen titeää ChessDogg kibitzes: Is this heading to a draw? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 1-0 Mating-Idea kibitzes: 1-0 LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: a6 forced because bxa4? bxc4 dxc4 Bxc4 weak e6 Kf7 Nxf5 NDA(C) whispers: Ka3.... Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ka3 then ne7 looks best move benwyvis kibitzes: Ka3 Ne7 axb axb kb4 NDA(C) whispers: Diep, Ka3 Nb6 ? ChessRailer kibitzes: andale...haci se hace...viva Van_Weekly NDA(C) whispers: thats what Fritz points Greco kibitzes: loek wants to have some fun and play won endgame instead of risky combination rbnn kibitzes: computers always get themsleves bad bishops. scrappy does anyway. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ka3 nb6 axb5 axb5 kb4 and wins a pawn on b5 PhishMaster kibitzes: ab ab Ka3-b4 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: jaa eikai se finnichannul oo ja en oo pahemmichattaillutkaa, ihan sama, ei oo enää mun Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: axb5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 43.axb5: dragonguard guest529 PhishMaster (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) NDA(C) whispers: axb5 Ka3 Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: axb5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 43...axb5: guest1254 NDA dragonguard (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: the queen's pawn game morphed into almost a colle system w/ ne5 f4 Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Ka3 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 44.Ka3: guest1254 Sjeng PhishMaster dragonguard guest31 (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: oh this is smart from loek Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: the machines do not see it but we get bishop endgame now with white pawn up on g5 EternalGame kibitzes: This opening is a Stonewall Atack, I presume... Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: with known result of course Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: +6.3 now Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: took some time daisuke kibitzes: this is the problem fo computer Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: if ne7 that is NDA(C) whispers: what program, Diep? FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: the only open question remaining is that when does the thing understand to resign this.. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: diep i already played ne7 dragonguard kibitzes: who give analysis of games ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: then kb4 is +6.4 mandarijn kibitzes: yes, like we really need computerevaluation for this, Adlo kibitzes: if black resigns now, the operater shows he understands some chess vedel kibitzes: resign here mandarijn kibitzes: it's exactly computerevaluation that got us here in the first place! Greco kibitzes: ed schroder obviously loves suffering and does not resign membertou whispers: good point daisuke kibitzes: i think if rebel shows -6.4 as well, the operator would resing djlogan kibitzes: The operator shouldn't resign on behalf of the computer. MrBug kibitzes: hehe if rebel still has a trick, then the operator shouldn't resign yet Wholafed whispers: Anyone with Fritz eval? crag kibitzes: Na7 NDA(C) whispers: Shredder 6 rated Na7 and Ne7 = +-2.75 NDA(C) whispers: Fritz 7 eval: +-2.25 Olrik kibitzes: 44...Nb6 45.Kb4,c*b3 46.N*b3,Na4 47. Nc5 Somnus(C) kibitzes: That's it... I am calling Ed... that is Kramnik playing with a Loek face mask!! Darnit all to heck ;) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ne7 is +6.4 gsb whispers: I did not think van Wely would win this game, but I must admit, it's looking pretty good for him! djlogan kibitzes: And the point is that the computer might know a trick, while a human may not see one. People shouldn't make the decisions for the computer. NDA(C) whispers: what program are you using, Diepeven? MrBug kibitzes: diepeveen u give a lot of evals but no lines Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i have not seen a moment in this game where black had a chance Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: DIEP dragonguard kibitzes: what is the cost of fritz7 ? membertou whispers: What trick? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: fritz6 is 10 euro in supermarket FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: nonii ei tää elämänlaatu tästä enää paljon parane, vaniljajätskiä mansikoiden ja hunajan kera Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so if they want for the same thing fritz7 like 50 euro, say F them Olrik kibitzes: Is Fritz better than DIEP? mandarijn kibitzes: van wely 1.0 has gone up in price today Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: if you wait a little fritz7 is like 9 euro too in supermarket LittlePeasant kibitzes: lol Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i beated fritz at world champs blitz Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so who is better? dragonguard kibitzes: c vrai diepeveen? NDA(C) whispers: Fritz of course CZacharias kibitzes: You could say it is not version 1.0 playing :-) dragonguard kibitzes: fi diepe Somnus(C) kibitzes: Yes Fritz is better than Diep.. no question Mating-Idea kibitzes: and you can find lots of game on the net where 2100 players crush fritz6 by sacking center pawns and a common bishop sac :) Cucumuch kibitzes: in stop and go stores u get fritz 1 for 15$ !!!! mandarijn kibitzes: yes, this is 1.0 the old version without the husslemode Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no kidding fritz is for $8 in the supermarket here CZacharias kibitzes: But van Wely has updated himself a lot of times! FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: what's the big difference between fritz and DIEP? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: that's fritz6 . difference with fritz7 is that fritz7 is more buggy NDA(C) whispers: +-3.74 Shredder 6 / +-2.50 Fritz 7 (d= 18 / d= 17) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: diep is not yet on the market LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: The truth is that Van Wely used perfect anticomputer strategy. Computers still handle closed positions arising from Colle/Q pawn openings very poorly EternalGame kibitzes: van-wely makes a reboot every morning LittlePeasant kibitzes: comps are really bad in any colle/trompowski FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: but programmers would need to change their way of playing completely if they wanted to get them excel in closed positions, I guess Nathalie kibitzes: 1-0? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: if you buy fritz for 40$ or 45 euro in the shop then my advice is: buy it for $8/euro10 in the supermarket :) Adlo kibitzes: diepenveen: how much longer would you continue this when DIEP was playing? ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: will the new fritz run on windows XP? Somnus(C) kibitzes: Yes it runs on Windows XP PhishMaster kibitzes: yes NDA(C) whispers: Fritz 7 runs perfectly on WIndows XP Mating-Idea kibitzes: Frozen, its very hard for them to improve i heard... TerminalDeath whispers: yes in Asia u can get a pirated Fritz7(good as original) for as low as a dollar dragonguard kibitzes: does fritz7 analys games? ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: thanks Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i would resign if it plays a stupid move here rbnn kibitzes: this is winning, but if the black king were on f7, would it still be winning? Kipje kibitzes: you can download fritz7 from an illegal FTP S-Sepp kibitzes: welke supermarkt is dat dan? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: diep would go play kf7 here not that stupid Kipje kibitzes: which is the cheapest way to get it dragonguard kibitzes: what is this ftp ? Nathalie kibitzes: unless you have a modem ;) rbnn kibitzes: that is if black had played kf7 would be a littler harder for white than ...Kg6?! MrBug kibitzes: hehe u think he'd kibitz it? :) MasterFighter whispers: how could van wely ever lose game 1? MrBug kibitzes: the ftp i mean Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: guys i have to go Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: good game from Loek MrBug kibitzes: ok bye membertou whispers: seeya rbnn kibitzes: i am looking at ...Ne7 kb4 Nc6 nc6 Bc6 kc5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i will be online but only now and then checking this computer membertou whispers: 'k dragonguard kibitzes: tell kipje allo? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so if i don't reply to the zillions of questions i get told to me. you know the reason MrBug kibitzes: go away ohjames whispers: ping MrBug kibitzes: so i can talk behind your back! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: perfect game from loek. no risk. chanceless win membertou whispers: why does that make it perfect? rbnn kibitzes: still not sure i see a clear win here MasterFighter whispers: this is lost for black rbnn kibitzes: after ...Ne7 then what FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: by the way comps still don't understand transposing openings, do they? Sjeng(C) kibitzes: they do, i think MrBug kibitzes: they do Sjeng(C) kibitzes: I know Fritz even understand reversed openings MrBug kibitzes: they can recognise the position FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: but I think that rebel got to pretty bad variation of colle Somnus(C) kibitzes: Just for the record... Diep is not as strong as Fritz. Fritz 7 is not buggier than Fritz 6. And Diepeveen just might be the only one here that honestly believes that Diep would have a 30% score against either program in a 100 game match Granis kibitzes: what does bluberry think of this ?! rbnn kibitzes: where is the win after ...ne7? FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: might have something to do with fact that I play this reversed reti against colle tho.. Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Somnus I think you could be in for a nasty surprise, Fritz 7 _is_ buggier than Fritz 6 (interface at least) bluberry kibitzes: +0.23 granis CZacharias kibitzes: Ne7 Kb4 Nc6+ Nxc6 Bxc6 bxc4 winning Game 1: Zek may be reconnecting. Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Ne7 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 44...Ne7: Diepeveen guest1459 rbnn CZacharias (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) rbnn kibitzes: ...ne7 kb4 nc6 nc6 bc6 kc5 Be8 Cucumuch kibitzes: hehehe, with other words diep is a cheater Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Kb4 MasterFighter whispers: Kb4 Mating-Idea kibitzes: Somnus, Fritz is strong in known lines but play interesting sac and it can go wrong Sjeng(C) kibitzes: as for Diep strength, he will be playing in Paderborn and World Champs, and he played in CCT. You can take a look and get an idea how good it is Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nc6+ GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 45...Nc6+: giomu (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng exactly.. Fritz 7's engine is quite a bit stronger than Fritz 6, and 5x times stronger than Diep.. it is it's interface that is the problem. The engine is fine under the older interfaces Zek has stopped examining game 1. Mating-Idea kibitzes: Fritz 7 lost to Crafty or some other program in a tournament... MasterFighter kibitzes: NxN PhishMaster kibitzes: Nc6 Nc6 Bc6 Kc5 Be8 bc bc Bf3 and Kd6 +- Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Nxc6 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 46.Nxc6: guest1459 giomu guest1225 MasterFighter PhishMaster (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Mating-Idea kibitzes: guess its still not that strong Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Bxc6 Sjeng(C) kibitzes: 5x stronger? whats that supposed to mean GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 46...Bxc6: giomu (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) PhishMaster kibitzes: kc5 EternalGame kibitzes: Hiarcs is the best software, i guess. dragonguard kibitzes: i find fritz7 at 49$ ! CZacharias kibitzes: Right, Kc5 has to be played before bxc4 Wholafed whispers: F7 is working close to perfect if you download the patch Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng if Diep were to be tested by the SSDF you would see what I mean.. 200 elo lower I guarantee it MrBug kibitzes: Bf3! dragonguard kibitzes: why diep tell me that it cost 8 $ dragonguard kibitzes: ? MasterFighter kibitzes: bxc MrBug kibitzes: clear win Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Eternalgame: Hiarcs is very old, would do pretty bad against a new program newsti kibitzes: why czach? LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: Kc5, then b4, Kd6... white will win a pawn eventually PhishMaster kibitzes: Kc5 Be8 bc bc Bf3 and Kd6 +- CZacharias kibitzes: Ok newsti bxc4 and then Kc5 works, too :-) Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Oh, SSDF no doubt :) daisuke kibitzes: shredder and fritz are bests newsti kibitzes: yes daisuke kibitzes: maybe junior too Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Kc5 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 47.Kc5: guest1459 giomu PhishMaster (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: I wouldn't trade bxc4 Granis kibitzes: berta would have loved this position !! LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: better push b4, his b5 pawn is a weakness too Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: Be8 MasterFighter kibitzes: yeah but how are u gonna let the bishop in? kibitzes: yeah but how are u gonna let the bishop in? MrBug kibitzes: u don't need to MrBug kibitzes: the king can't move from g6 Cucumuch kibitzes: it,s a simplw zugzwnag PhishMaster kibitzes: bc bc kd6 LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: e.g. b4 Bd7 Kd6 Bc8 Kc6 Ba6 Kb6 knicke(IM) kibitzes: Dont be sure that Berta would love this position, you can't be sure that the computer would accept a draw.... MasterFighter kibitzes: if bishop goes in its 1-0 Wholafed whispers: I think you will have to do bxc4 after Kd6 Bf7 CapaH kibitzes: I see a possibility of Bh5+ later on - say with the king at e7 Nathalie kibitzes: yeah, but is Loek makes one mistake its probably dead-drawn Sjeng(C) kibitzes: additionally, crafty is about 100 points weaker than S6 which is topping now, and diep is stronger than crafty, so your statement is obviously nonsense MrBug kibitzes: b4 Kg7 LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: black will be in zugzwang soon Nathalie kibitzes: what do the computers say about this position, anybody? RossA kibitzes: b4 Kg7 and how do you win a pawn? bfritz kibitzes: depth=15 1/14 +4.59 48. bxc4 dxc4 49. Bf3 Kg7 50. Bb7 Kf7 51. Ba6 b4 52. Kxb4 Ke7 53. Bxc4 Bf7 54. Kc5 Bg6 55. Bb5 bfritz kibitzes: all over Greco kibitzes: kg7 bh5 MrBug kibitzes: bxc4 is best i think Cucumuch kibitzes: is bftiz a member of chessbase? LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: b4 Kg7 Kd6 Bf7 Ke7 Kg6 Bh5+ Kxh5 Kxf7 for instance Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng you will see at the IPCCC. Diep will not finish higher than 8th. It has never finished well newsti kibitzes: b4 is the prettiest, no doubt Venshy kibitzes: computers say : 'damn, our man lost!!' Sjeng(C) kibitzes: chessbase member have their own server :) ChessDogg kibitzes: the average 1400 player can win this endgame for white!!! MrBug kibitzes: lazypawn not Kg6?? but Kg8! knightmares kibitzes: b4 looks logical MasterFighter kibitzes: bxc bxc Bxc dxB Kxc Nathalie kibitzes: lols@chessdogg RossA kibitzes: b4 Kg7 and how do you win a pawn? Black just moves K not B...if Kd6 Bf7 ChessDogg kibitzes: heck even Cucu might be able to win this AmyQuest whispers: in theory black is lost, but we will have to wait, remember yesterday MasterFighter kibitzes: shirov variation PhishMaster kibitzes: why that when bc bc Kd6 and there are 2 routes in for the B and zugszwang is much easier to achieve? LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: b4 Kg7 Kd6 Bf7 Ke7 Kg6 Bh5+ Kxh5 Kxf7 for instance Somnus(C) kibitzes: And Vincent has tuned his program to beat Crafty.. that is the only reason it is better. Diep used to get killed day in and day out by Crafty MasterFighter kibitzes: how do you handle that? Cucumuch kibitzes: Cucu would have won it 20 moves ago! MasterFighter kibitzes: bxc bxc Bxc dxB Kxc MasterFighter kibitzes: ! TerminalDeath whispers: ouch chessdogg newsti kibitzes: and if Kg8 Kf6 RossA kibitzes: ok...if not Kg6, white K gets to f6 LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: sure, I push g6 ChessDogg kibitzes: go CucuMunch go!! MrBug kibitzes: ah ok Venshy kibitzes: such a shame that loek lost yesterday newsti kibitzes: yea ChessDogg kibitzes: its not a shame..its a learning experience Golem(C) whispers: S6 +5.64 d21 bxc4 Sjeng(C) kibitzes: <- realizes sound arguments are not going to work to convince a personal preconception Wholafed whispers: How could he loose that endgame yesterday? LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: bxc4 is winning too, but b4 is what I expect CZacharias kibitzes: How will Loek manage to lose this one? Cucumuch kibitzes: b4 and zugzwang in a few omves bfritz kibitzes: he got loose MrBug kibitzes: but lazypawn - it is easy to rattle off the variations here TerminalDeath whispers: r u insinuating that i am stupid? MrBug kibitzes: when u have nothing to lose MrBug kibitzes: try playing it on the board :) LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: trust me, b4 is a very simple win newsti kibitzes: b4 is just logical mrbug Game 1: Rebel2002 moves: b4 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 48.b4: guest1625 giomu MrBug RossTorrinha LazyPawn newsti knightmares Cucumuch (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Wholafed whispers: :-) MrBug kibitzes: time for the computer to resign Cucumuch kibitzes: hehhe, i said b4 as the first one LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: we don't trade c4 because black's b5 is just one more weakness to defend Rebel2002 whispers: AND BLACK RESIGNS Granis kibitzes: comps "never" resign ?! MAXIS kibitzes: lol Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng you have an argument that Diep is better than Crafty.. that is true.. what you don't realize is that CCT4 was really a blitz tournament, and whenever Diep plays the big boys at tournament time controls it loses.. hands down Wholafed whispers: Some comps do resign! EternalGame kibitzes: Kg7 djlogan kibitzes: They can be programmed to resign ChessDogg kibitzes: someone should build a "Resing" subroutine for Rebel MasterFighter kibitzes: alright now u totally close the position ChessDogg kibitzes: i can write in TASM Rebel2002 whispers: OK Ed resigns Granis kibitzes: not the one I know .... :-) MasterFighter kibitzes: how u gonna win EternalGame kibitzes: Kg7, and Bf7/e8/g8 PhishMaster kibitzes: it was still quicker to play bc bc Kd6 Bf7 (Kf7 Bh5) Bd1-a4-d7 winning. newsti kibitzes: black resigned masterf Sjeng(C) kibitzes: Somnus: I'm on of those people who have very large doubts by there being any kind of significant difference for long vs short timecontrols MasterFighter kibitzes: if Kd6 Bf2 TerminalDeath whispers: i'm not a girl, sings britney bfritz kibitzes: depth=18 1/7 +4.35 48. ... Kh7 49. Kd6 Bf7 50. Ke7 Kg7 51. Bd1 Kg8 52. Kf6 Kf8 53. g6 Bxg6 54. Kxg6 Ke7 55. Bc2 Kd8 56. Bxf5 exf5 57. Kxf5 Somnus(C) kibitzes: Sjeng you will see exactly what I mean at IPCCC. Just sit Diep in 8th, and it won't move bfritz kibitzes: hopeless Somnus(C) kibitzes: Gromit will finish higher than Diep bfritz kibitzes: again the computer has an hour on its clock and resigns :) Golem(C) whispers: S6 d24 +9.74 Kh7 Greco kibitzes: loek had won pos after 15-17 moves! good performance Sjeng(C) kibitzes: perhaps, so how does that prove diep is 200 points weaker than fritz? Cucumuch kibitzes: hoho, the progy must show the operator an evaluation of at least -4 Somnus(C) kibitzes: Get Vincent to let the SSDF test it. Again you will see I am right Golem(C) whispers: more LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: I find it funny to see evaluations like +9.74 :-) Are you sure it's not +10.23? Golem(C) whispers: no, 10-23 is too optimistic ;-) Sterile kibitzes: no, definitely not 10.23, white has doubled pawns !! :-) ezmoney kibitzes: lazypawn, +10.23 is the *next* evaluation. you are getting ahead of the program! CapaH kibitzes: the cool thing here - even without the e pawn white is still won :) LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: not so sure ezmoney kibitzes: which e-pawn? CapaH kibitzes: e3 MAXIS kibitzes: not true LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: without the e pawn black chooses a line with B trade, than has c5-d4, c4-c3 MAXIS kibitzes: white needs that pawn giomu kibitzes: the e6 obviusly :-) CapaH kibitzes: ah CapaH kibitzes: good point FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: funny, if I had won +9.something position I would've most likely got medal in youth european championships, oh well, of course I lost it crag kibitzes: what happened gsb kibitzes: loek is good. he's good at chess. Wholafed whispers: I think Rebel has some work to do with the openingbook before next game! Somnus(C) kibitzes: Gromit, Gandalf, Fritz, SOS, Patzer, Shredder, Brutus, p.Connors will all finish ahead of Diep at IPCCC petem kibitzes: never realized GMs were such good chessplayers Wholafed whispers: What about Yace? Somnus(C) kibitzes: Yace is not playing at IPCCC Granis kibitzes: is he tryin to bore him out ?! Wholafed whispers: To bad, its pretty strong LazyPawn(IM) kibitzes: white's moves in this game could have been played by any 2200 player, there was nothing special. Black's handling of the opening was patzer like Somnus(C) kibitzes: The gameis over.. bfritz kibitzes: those weak computers :) CapaH kibitzes: Rebel will think for 55 minutes then resign :P Somnus(C) kibitzes: Rebel has resigned Nathalie kibitzes: do you mean, you could have beaten Rebel, too? ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: yep, that is what they do, exhaust the lines bfritz kibitzes: all humans can beat computers Greco kibitzes: according to website black resigned Megasalud whispers: how can black trade the bishop ? FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: but still it isn't that easy to keep things under control, I have got busted by fritz many times by nice tactical shot when position already looked like finito ChessDogg kibitzes: not true bfritz Elkitano kibitzes: finger baa :) zombie1 kibitzes: how does this proceed from here? ChessDogg kibitzes: you have to have some decent tactics EternalGame kibitzes: I beat chessmaster 6000 once, in a 5 0 blitz. number7 whispers: youi take out a baseball bat and start swinging ChessDogg kibitzes: you prolly had it on chump mode forku2 kibitzes: i can beat my gameboy ChessDogg kibitzes: fi eternalgame bfritz kibitzes: I am always told that humans are better and I believe what I am told MAXIS kibitzes: CHUMP MODE@!! LOL!! AmyQuest whispers: all decent programs have resigning levels: you can choose either never or different negative evaluations ( -2.00, -3.00, -6.00...etc) ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: finger britneyspears -- she's rated 2400 in bullet ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: and you thought she could only sing? Whitecloak kibitzes: Stop Fingering Britney... crag kibitzes: did the comp resign? crag kibitzes: sorry did the operator resign? Megasalud whispers: what does the site say ? ChessGM-Lemming kibitzes: oops, i did it again bfritz kibitzes: taking half the time you should to calculate is a good strategy by the programmer TerminalDeath whispers: amyquest...shes the serious type...hhmmm Venshy kibitzes: why doesn't the thing resign? Greco kibitzes: according to website black resigned crag kibitzes: is it still playing, the clock has stopped culate is a good strategy by the programmer TerminalDeath whispers: amyquest...shes the serious type...hhmmm Venshy kibitzes: why doesn't the thing resign? Greco kibitzes: according to website black resigned crag kibitzes: is it still playing, the clock has stopped S-Sepp kibitzes: how would white proceed here to win? CapaH kibitzes: what website crag kibitzes: should resign right? psume kibitzes: who is white?? Nathalie kibitzes: Zek? Megasalud whispers: so Zek resign ? AmyQuest whispers: remembering yesterday I would say Ed wont resign today, otherwise the program see a minus mate Greco kibitzes: site is http://www.chessevents.nl Venshy kibitzes: top dutch GM Megasalud whispers: yes , site shows black s resign...... KnightBird kibitzes: looks like a draw CapaH kibitzes: site shows 1 - 1 natnee kibitzes: looks like 1-0 CapaH kibitzes: KnightBird: This looks like a draw? natnee kibitzes: to me. MAXIS kibitzes: and it looks like your 1300 JPF kibitzes: Ok, show the winning line natnee kibitzes: Kd6, Bf7 Ke7, Bg8 Mating-Idea kibitzes: black K cant move NDA(C) whispers: if Official site says 1-1, wheres the problem? crag kibitzes: only has to bring kto d7 crag kibitzes: sorry e7 bfritz kibitzes: depth=20 1/7 +5.48 48. ... Kh7 49. Kd6 Bf7 50. Ke7 Kg7 51. Bf3 Kg8 52. Kf6 Kf8 53. g6 Bxg6 54. Kxg6 Ke7 55. Bh5 Kd8 56. Kf6 d4 57. Kxe6 dxc3 58. Kxf5 Zek(*) kibitzes: I see 1-0 on the official site natnee kibitzes: seems i'm not alone in thinking its a win :) NDA(C) whispers: +-6.03 (Fritz 7, d=23) CapaH kibitzes: the website confirms at b4 black resigned NDA(C) whispers: Zek, check this one http://www.chessevents.nl/Vanwely/wely_match.htm ;-) CapaH kibitzes: this game is over :) CapaH kibitzes: Loek won Nathalie kibitzes: yeah Zek is now an examiner of game 1. PhishMaster kibitzes: Official 1-0 Game 1: White wins White wins AmyQuest whispers: black resigned, Gandalf 5.1 at 2.2 GHz evaluates Kg7 and -6.24 Megasalud whispers: so - 6 = resign.... CapaH kibitzes: 2 games to go, its tied 1 - 1 Game 1: Rebel2002 may be reconnecting. crag kibitzes: should be 1.5 / 0.5 for VW AmyQuest whispers: more or less in this position, seeing ply 22-25 crag kibitzes: draw tomorrow and then white again of friday Rebel2002 has stopped examining game 1. AmyQuest whispers: -7.45 at ply 24 Zek(*) kibitzes: The match is tied at 1.0-1.0 Zek(*) kibitzes: Game 3 starts tomorrow at 7 AM ICC time Zek(*) kibitzes: Type "examine Rebel2002 52" to replay today's game CapaH kibitzes: you mean %52 CapaH kibitzes: not 52 ;) Claus kibitzes: what is the winning line? Zek(*) kibitzes: Type "examine Rebel2002 %2" to replay today's game Golem(C) whispers: S6 +10.55 Ply26 S-Sepp kibitzes: i thought rebel said it starts an hour earlier FishOn kibitzes: the winning line has something to do with Bf7 and Bh5 after white king comes to e7 Zek(*) kibitzes: I sure don't see anything -- is zugzwang possible ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: you simply win a pawn Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kd6 next move then kxd6 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Kd6 zuggy Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kd6 bf7 ke7 now bh5 threatens Lordof-deskys kibitzes: if Bf7 Ke7 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Bg8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: then on kg7 you play anything even g6 wins bigtime Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Kf8 ChessDogg kibitzes: did black resign Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: you can win this without zugzwang Lordof-deskys kibitzes: yes Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and then even bh5-e8xb5 onlooker(DM) kibitzes: that 'anything' smells like zugzwang to me, diep :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but sure zugzwang goes quicker ;) Lordof-deskys kibitzes: what is the aprroximate strength of Rebel? Zek(*) kibitzes: Rebel web site DOES say game 3 starts one hour earlier -- I will correct it here Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ok let's do it without zugzwang. i allow you to nullmove with black ChessDogg kibitzes: he can bench about 345 lbs Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i play kd6 your move is? Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Zug diep Lordof-deskys kibitzes: im in Zug Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: you may nullmove in that case kxe6 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: ok Bf7 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so kd6 bf7 then i play ke7 your move is? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: if you nullmove i play bh5 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Zug Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Bg8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kd6 bf7 ke7 bg8 kf8 your move is? Adlo kibitzes: B98, Kf8 Zek(*) kibitzes: I can show that analysis here Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: hehe icc doesn't allo wnullmoves Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Bh7 TerminalDeath whispers: history terminaldeath Zek(*) kibitzes: but it is black to move Adlo kibitzes: Bh7, Bf3 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: oh#!!!!!!! Lordof-deskys kibitzes: it is blakc 2 move! Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: after bf7 i play bf3 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: yes Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: bh7 bf3 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: diep Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: idea bxd5 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: that has put me in Xug Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: you may nullmove from me Lordof-deskys kibitzes: ok Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: zugzwang = tempodwang Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: in dutch Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for those who do not know what it is Lordof-deskys kibitzes: y r we discussing this? Lordof-deskys kibitzes: it is an obvious win for white Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i claim white can win it without zugzwang Zek(*) kibitzes: This is analysis Game 1: Zek sets the position so it is White to move. Zek(*) kibitzes: white move ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kd6 Game 1: Zek moves: Kd6 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 1.Kd6: Diepeveen (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Game 1: Zek moves: Bf7 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ke7 Game 1: Zek moves: Ke7 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 2.Ke7: Diepeveen (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Zek(*) kibitzes: bg8 ? or pass ? Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: pass is bh5 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: bg8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so bg8 forced onlooker(DM) kibitzes: diep, your bf3 is a 'tempozetje' :) Game 1: Zek moves: Bg8 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 2...Bg8: Zek Lordof-deskys (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no onlooker Lordof-deskys kibitzes: kf8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: it is bxd5 threat Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: kf8 now Game 1: Zek moves: Kf8 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 3.Kf8: Lordof-deskys Diepeveen (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Lordof-deskys kibitzes: bh7 FrozenShade(IM) kibitzes: Bh7 Bf3 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: bf3 xd5 NeedsBoon whispers: i assume this is over in a draw? Lordof-deskys kibitzes: yup Game 1: Zek moves: Bh7 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 3...Bh7: Lordof-deskys FrozenShade (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Game 1: Zek moves: Bf3 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: pass? Lordof-deskys kibitzes: 1-0 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: pass is bxd5 Game 1: Zek sets the position so it is White to move. onlooker(DM) kibitzes: ok, sorry, mis-moved black's moves in my brain :) NeedsBoon whispers: wow, white won this? Game 1: Zek moves: Bxd5 Game 1: Zek moves: exd5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: bxd5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: e6 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: e6 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Kh5 ChessDogg kibitzes: e6 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: e7 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: Bg6 Game 1: Zek moves: e6 GuessTheMove(C DM) whispers: Correctly predicting 2.e6: Diepeveen Lordof-deskys ChessDogg (Tell GuessTheMove your guess) Game 1: Zek moves: Kh5 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: e8Q bxe8 kxe8 Game 1: Zek moves: e7 Game 1: Zek moves: Bg6 Game 1: Zek moves: e8=Q Game 1: Zek moves: Bxe8 Lordof-deskys kibitzes: 1-0 Game 1: Zek moves: Kxe8 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: and g6 wins easy Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: g5 pawn Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no zugzwang needed Game 1: Zek moves: Kg6 Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: ke7xd5xb5 Zek(*) kibitzes: Still won NeedsBoon whispers: f or b, poison either way Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so no zugzwang though it wins faster of course with zugzwang Zek(*) kibitzes: Thanks Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: you're welcome Zek(*) kibitzes: Game 3 starts ONE HOUR EARLIER than today jensk(IM) kibitzes: What is this? My junior6 would resign in such a position onlooker(DM) kibitzes: in my definition that is still zugzwang, diep. Relative zugzwang instead of absolute. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: wrong onlooker. zugzwang is win by one of the players needing to play a move because it is his move Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: this can be won without zugzwang onlooker(DM) kibitzes: not always, diep Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: THIS Zek(*) kibitzes: This is Diepeveen's analysis from the final position Game 1: Zek backs up 10. Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: onlooker may play whatever move he wishes onlooker(DM) kibitzes: nono, I'm not disagreeing on this position :) Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: some moves ago Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: with king on c5 you disagreed? Game 1: Zek does loadfen 4b3/8/4p1k1/1pKpPpP1/1Pp2P2/2P1P3/4B3/8 b - - 0 48. onlooker(DM) kibitzes: just saying one can define zugzwang a little more generally Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: wrong Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: zugzwang is losing because you have to play a move onlooker(DM) kibitzes: nothing wrong about it :) onlooker(DM) kibitzes: zugzwang is being worse because you have to playa move Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: white wins here allowing black to pass onlooker(DM) kibitzes: if you extend being worse to losing faster, or winning slower Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: so there is no zugzwang problem at all Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: white can win without zugzwang Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for computerchess this is deadly important Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: because they have problems with zugzwangs Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: takes plies more Zek(*) kibitzes: Do we know the time for game 4 ? onlooker(DM) kibitzes: forget it :) S-Sepp kibitzes: rebel2002 said that games 3 and 4 will both start one hour earlier, at 12 CET Zek(*) kibitzes: Thanks S-Sepp kibitzes: sure Zek(*) kibitzes: The match is tied 1.0-1.0 Game 3 starts tomorrow at 6 AM ICC time -- one hour earlier than today Dave-1 has stopped examining game 1. Game 1 (which you were observing) has no examiners.
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