Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 19:31:46 07/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 29, 2003 at 20:16:59, Matthew White wrote:
>On July 29, 2003 at 16:53:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On July 29, 2003 at 03:15:54, Hristo wrote:
>>
>>>On July 28, 2003 at 19:12:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 17:34:46, Russell Reagan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Is there any reason to start new projects with C anymore? It seems like most (if
>>>>>not all) of the drawbacks of C++ have faded away with modern compilers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Note that I am talking about new projects, and maintaining old projects is
>>>>>obviously a good reason to still use C.
>>>>
>>>>If i would learn coding today i would prefer C++.
>>>>
>>>>However let's be clear, for good programmers there is not much diff between C
>>>>and C++. Every complex problem which you can solve in 10000 lines of C++ you can
>>>>solve in 10000 lines C too.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Vincent,
>>>with all due respect I must disagree. In 10K lines of C++ code one can solve a
>>>much more general or larger set of problem(s) or cram in more features. :)
>>>(think templates, exceptions, and often inheritance ... all of which can shorten
>>>your code)
>>
>>I do not know about you, but i program both in C and C++.
>>
>>Do you?
>>
>>Not a single program where you can use all the nice toys you can also make a few
>>functions for in C.
>>
>>In general the average programmed C++ program you program more compact in C.
>>
>>That's not what i'm talking about.
>>
>>If you do not know how to program in C, then just say it loud instead of writing
>>it down like this.
>>
>>the advantages of what you mention here (assuming 1 man products) you can show
>>great in 50 line examples or even 200 line examples.
>>
>>But as soon as you write a 10000 line product then it doesn't matter what you do
>>in C++. I can do the same in C too. No problem!
>>
>>>In your post, latter, you indicate that C++ offers some advantages over C,
>>>especially for large projects. In my experience this is %100 true, so we are in
>>
>>I see no other advantages to C++ than for big projects in fact.
>>
>>The advantage is *really* huge there for companies.
>>
>>Given the importance of those companies for the world, the choice to teach
>>students C++ instead of C is a logical choice.
>>
>>teaching them Java, delphi i find a bad idea.
>>
>The best reason that I see to teach students using Java is that Java gives you
>useful information when an error occurs (remember the first time you saw a
>segmentation fault how lost you felt?). Java has strong typing and it FORCES
>object orientedness. C and C++ are too frustrating for new programmers...
>
>Matt
I agree fully with Bob here. His Pascal argument is very valid.
Let me give you a bunch of reasons why you should not teach in a language like
that JAVA or delphi or pascal:
1) the students will later use the language they are learned. So
if you directly learn them C++ they will use that. now they are doomed
to use java or pascal because that's what they are familiar with.
2) your students will earn thanks to that you learned them this toy language
a lot less. C++ programmers earn better than Java programmers in general.
In fact even some 'older' languages like fortran earn very well.
Majority of
programmers in netherlands at the KPN (which is about a 1000) is fortran
programmers just to give an example. But also at supercomputers fortran
is very important.
3) If you learn them C++ you achieve 3 objectives at the same time
3a - they learn a language they can later use
3b - you can show them the great things of object orientation
in 50 line programs
3c - they are not fearing to program in C++ as they are familiar with it
4) In big companies decisions get taken by management. Not by programmers.
Managers in general are doing what is good for their company.
If statistics show that 80% of all programmers with very small shoe
sizes will make buggy code, then in theory the law doesn't allow you
to discriminate. However managers do not work like the law there. They
fear hiring someone who writes buggy code, so they never hire someone
with a small shoe size if that statistic would be the case.
Same is true for Pascal. Pascal is for newbies, exactly as you say so.
Therefore managers will not hire people who are good in pascal, because
a manager always finds out the truth. With his questions to the programmer
the programmer in the end will confess he's better in pascal than in
C++, so the manager concludes he's a pascal coder. So the programmer
deduces from that he gotta be a crappy coder. So he isn't hired.
Managers work very instinctive and they should. They are there to prevent
disasters for their company, not to play the advocate of the devil which
will say that a coder isn't a bad coder unless you have clear proof
of that. Trivially it's easier to not hire someone than to fire someone.
5) This really is important. In university and colleges they still do not
understand a thing very well and that is that 99% of the time you are busy
fixing bugs and 1% of the time you are busy creating something new. I will not
say throwing someone in the deep is a good thing. I have no opinion there.
But for sure it is better to learn to debug. Example at my own university out of
all the years that i was there i saw only 1 course which had 1 sheet which said
that debugging was important.
All the other theories about debugging i have figured out myself. What is a
boundschecker. How the debugger works and how to effectively write testbeds.
Your simple programming language when preventing severe bugs will definitely
create a bad coder. Someone who can't debug. That's a horror.
If someone has followed your course i bet he can't debug. yet 99% of his time he
will lose debugging in his programming career.
Programmers just starting their program i have always this discussion with:
"Did you let it print to a log file all the lines is searched with alfa and beta
scores?"
..
"Why not?"
..
"SURE you must do that"
..
"yes i am VERY sure you must do that. How can you fix a bug in your chess
program if you do not know where it is and all you know is that it plays the
wrong move?"
How many more programmers who just started their chess engine i need to explain
it to? They should learn this already at *school* IMHO.
If you only teach someone to drive a car, why give him a flying license?
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