Author: Gerd Isenberg
Date: 13:52:47 07/30/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 30, 2003 at 00:00:54, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 29, 2003 at 22:10:11, Matthew White wrote: > >>On July 29, 2003 at 22:08:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 29, 2003 at 20:16:59, Matthew White wrote: >>> >>>>On July 29, 2003 at 16:53:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 03:15:54, Hristo wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 19:12:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 17:34:46, Russell Reagan wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is there any reason to start new projects with C anymore? It seems like most (if >>>>>>>>not all) of the drawbacks of C++ have faded away with modern compilers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Note that I am talking about new projects, and maintaining old projects is >>>>>>>>obviously a good reason to still use C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If i would learn coding today i would prefer C++. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>However let's be clear, for good programmers there is not much diff between C >>>>>>>and C++. Every complex problem which you can solve in 10000 lines of C++ you can >>>>>>>solve in 10000 lines C too. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Vincent, >>>>>>with all due respect I must disagree. In 10K lines of C++ code one can solve a >>>>>>much more general or larger set of problem(s) or cram in more features. :) >>>>>>(think templates, exceptions, and often inheritance ... all of which can shorten >>>>>>your code) >>>>> >>>>>I do not know about you, but i program both in C and C++. >>>>> >>>>>Do you? >>>>> >>>>>Not a single program where you can use all the nice toys you can also make a few >>>>>functions for in C. >>>>> >>>>>In general the average programmed C++ program you program more compact in C. >>>>> >>>>>That's not what i'm talking about. >>>>> >>>>>If you do not know how to program in C, then just say it loud instead of writing >>>>>it down like this. >>>>> >>>>>the advantages of what you mention here (assuming 1 man products) you can show >>>>>great in 50 line examples or even 200 line examples. >>>>> >>>>>But as soon as you write a 10000 line product then it doesn't matter what you do >>>>>in C++. I can do the same in C too. No problem! >>>>> >>>>>>In your post, latter, you indicate that C++ offers some advantages over C, >>>>>>especially for large projects. In my experience this is %100 true, so we are in >>>>> >>>>>I see no other advantages to C++ than for big projects in fact. >>>>> >>>>>The advantage is *really* huge there for companies. >>>>> >>>>>Given the importance of those companies for the world, the choice to teach >>>>>students C++ instead of C is a logical choice. >>>>> >>>>>teaching them Java, delphi i find a bad idea. >>>>> >>>>The best reason that I see to teach students using Java is that Java gives you >>>>useful information when an error occurs (remember the first time you saw a >>>>segmentation fault how lost you felt?). Java has strong typing and it FORCES >>>>object orientedness. C and C++ are too frustrating for new programmers... >>>> >>>>Matt >>> >>> >>>Strong typing was also Pascal's claim to fame. Thankfully it died a >>>graceful death. >> >>It was good for teaching, though... >> >>Matt > > >Depends on your ultimate goal. If you are going to be a programmer, it is >not the best way to go. If you program in Java for 4 years, then leave and >go to work where they use C, you have a _long_ learning curve. You've never >seen pointers, for example. Bob, that may be true - but if they do Java in their job, the learning curve is rather short, if not zero. In my working environment i found the trend goes to Java. Huge business client/server applications with Java application server like Bea and JBoss. I found Java-beans much more intuitive than C++ based component ware i used so far, but still a newbie in this field. Have you ever used COM (the better C++?!) or MSXML-DOM with ms-smartpointer? I learned in the "bottom-up" way, from assembler close to hardware to Pascal and later C/C++. I had clear imaginations what an address or a pointer is. In the meantime with C++, i prefere the reference synonym instead of pointer, only because of syntax ( a=b instead of *a=*b, passing a,b instead of &a,&b and only a prototype with (int &a) instead of (int *a). Due to my career i'm not sure what's the "best" didactical way to teach "call be reference" or "call by pointer" first, may be very individual. Gerd > >We took a _lot_ of heat about that from companies like BellSouth.
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