Author: Ulrich Tuerke
Date: 08:16:32 07/31/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 30, 2003 at 17:15:11, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 30, 2003 at 16:52:47, Gerd Isenberg wrote: > >>On July 30, 2003 at 00:00:54, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 29, 2003 at 22:10:11, Matthew White wrote: >>> >>>>On July 29, 2003 at 22:08:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 20:16:59, Matthew White wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 16:53:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 03:15:54, Hristo wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 19:12:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 17:34:46, Russell Reagan wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Is there any reason to start new projects with C anymore? It seems like most (if >>>>>>>>>>not all) of the drawbacks of C++ have faded away with modern compilers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Note that I am talking about new projects, and maintaining old projects is >>>>>>>>>>obviously a good reason to still use C. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If i would learn coding today i would prefer C++. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>However let's be clear, for good programmers there is not much diff between C >>>>>>>>>and C++. Every complex problem which you can solve in 10000 lines of C++ you can >>>>>>>>>solve in 10000 lines C too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Vincent, >>>>>>>>with all due respect I must disagree. In 10K lines of C++ code one can solve a >>>>>>>>much more general or larger set of problem(s) or cram in more features. :) >>>>>>>>(think templates, exceptions, and often inheritance ... all of which can shorten >>>>>>>>your code) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not know about you, but i program both in C and C++. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Do you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Not a single program where you can use all the nice toys you can also make a few >>>>>>>functions for in C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In general the average programmed C++ program you program more compact in C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's not what i'm talking about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you do not know how to program in C, then just say it loud instead of writing >>>>>>>it down like this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>the advantages of what you mention here (assuming 1 man products) you can show >>>>>>>great in 50 line examples or even 200 line examples. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But as soon as you write a 10000 line product then it doesn't matter what you do >>>>>>>in C++. I can do the same in C too. No problem! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In your post, latter, you indicate that C++ offers some advantages over C, >>>>>>>>especially for large projects. In my experience this is %100 true, so we are in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I see no other advantages to C++ than for big projects in fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The advantage is *really* huge there for companies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Given the importance of those companies for the world, the choice to teach >>>>>>>students C++ instead of C is a logical choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>teaching them Java, delphi i find a bad idea. >>>>>>> >>>>>>The best reason that I see to teach students using Java is that Java gives you >>>>>>useful information when an error occurs (remember the first time you saw a >>>>>>segmentation fault how lost you felt?). Java has strong typing and it FORCES >>>>>>object orientedness. C and C++ are too frustrating for new programmers... >>>>>> >>>>>>Matt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Strong typing was also Pascal's claim to fame. Thankfully it died a >>>>>graceful death. >>>> >>>>It was good for teaching, though... >>>> >>>>Matt >>> >>> >>>Depends on your ultimate goal. If you are going to be a programmer, it is >>>not the best way to go. If you program in Java for 4 years, then leave and >>>go to work where they use C, you have a _long_ learning curve. You've never >>>seen pointers, for example. >> >>Bob, that may be true - but if they do Java in their job, the learning curve is >>rather short, if not zero. > >I already said that. But for large IT organizations, Java is not an >option. C/C++ and COBOL are dominant, still. > > >> >>In my working environment i found the trend goes to Java. Huge business >>client/server applications with Java application server like Bea and JBoss. >>I found Java-beans much more intuitive than C++ based component ware i used so >>far, but still a newbie in this field. Have you ever used COM (the better C++?!) > >No to COM... > > >>or MSXML-DOM with ms-smartpointer? >> >>I learned in the "bottom-up" way, from assembler close to hardware to Pascal and >>later C/C++. I had clear imaginations what an address or a pointer is. >> >>In the meantime with C++, i prefere the reference synonym instead of pointer, >>only because of syntax ( a=b instead of *a=*b, passing a,b instead of &a,&b and >>only a prototype with (int &a) instead of (int *a). >>Due to my career i'm not sure what's the "best" didactical way to teach "call be >>reference" or "call by pointer" first, may be very individual. > > >I learned assembly first, then FORTRAN and then others. The point is that it >is far better to learn your main programming language (for your career) first, >rather than later. Learning syntax is easy. Learning semantics is not as >easy. Experience to become a _good_ programmer in a specific language takes >_much_ longer. > >By the way, the two calling conventions are commonly called "pass by value >(where a copy of the value is passed, as in FORTRAN)" and "pass by reference" >(where a pointer to the value is passed). I think that you are wrong here: good old Fortran passes parameters by ref.. C is an example for "pass by value". Uli > > > >> >>Gerd >> >>> >>>We took a _lot_ of heat about that from companies like BellSouth.
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