Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 02:58:47 08/01/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 31, 2003 at 18:17:25, Matthew White wrote: >On July 31, 2003 at 09:44:02, Anthony Cozzie wrote: > >>On July 30, 2003 at 21:42:31, Matthew White wrote: >> >>>On July 29, 2003 at 22:31:46, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On July 29, 2003 at 20:16:59, Matthew White wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 16:53:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 03:15:54, Hristo wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 19:12:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On July 28, 2003 at 17:34:46, Russell Reagan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is there any reason to start new projects with C anymore? It seems like most (if >>>>>>>>>not all) of the drawbacks of C++ have faded away with modern compilers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Note that I am talking about new projects, and maintaining old projects is >>>>>>>>>obviously a good reason to still use C. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If i would learn coding today i would prefer C++. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>However let's be clear, for good programmers there is not much diff between C >>>>>>>>and C++. Every complex problem which you can solve in 10000 lines of C++ you can >>>>>>>>solve in 10000 lines C too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vincent, >>>>>>>with all due respect I must disagree. In 10K lines of C++ code one can solve a >>>>>>>much more general or larger set of problem(s) or cram in more features. :) >>>>>>>(think templates, exceptions, and often inheritance ... all of which can shorten >>>>>>>your code) >>>>>> >>>>>>I do not know about you, but i program both in C and C++. >>>>>> >>>>>>Do you? >>>>>> >>>>>>Not a single program where you can use all the nice toys you can also make a few >>>>>>functions for in C. >>>>>> >>>>>>In general the average programmed C++ program you program more compact in C. >>>>>> >>>>>>That's not what i'm talking about. >>>>>> >>>>>>If you do not know how to program in C, then just say it loud instead of writing >>>>>>it down like this. >>>>>> >>>>>>the advantages of what you mention here (assuming 1 man products) you can show >>>>>>great in 50 line examples or even 200 line examples. >>>>>> >>>>>>But as soon as you write a 10000 line product then it doesn't matter what you do >>>>>>in C++. I can do the same in C too. No problem! >>>>>> >>>>>>>In your post, latter, you indicate that C++ offers some advantages over C, >>>>>>>especially for large projects. In my experience this is %100 true, so we are in >>>>>> >>>>>>I see no other advantages to C++ than for big projects in fact. >>>>>> >>>>>>The advantage is *really* huge there for companies. >>>>>> >>>>>>Given the importance of those companies for the world, the choice to teach >>>>>>students C++ instead of C is a logical choice. >>>>>> >>>>>>teaching them Java, delphi i find a bad idea. >>>>>> >>>>>The best reason that I see to teach students using Java is that Java gives you >>>>>useful information when an error occurs (remember the first time you saw a >>>>>segmentation fault how lost you felt?). Java has strong typing and it FORCES >>>>>object orientedness. C and C++ are too frustrating for new programmers... >>>>> >>>>>Matt >>>> >>>>I agree fully with Bob here. His Pascal argument is very valid. >>>> >>>>Let me give you a bunch of reasons why you should not teach in a language like >>>>that JAVA or delphi or pascal: >>>> >>>> 1) the students will later use the language they are learned. So >>>> if you directly learn them C++ they will use that. now they are doomed >>>> to use java or pascal because that's what they are familiar with. >>>> 2) your students will earn thanks to that you learned them this toy language >>>> a lot less. C++ programmers earn better than Java programmers in general. >>>> In fact even some 'older' languages like fortran earn very well. >>>> Majority of >>>> programmers in netherlands at the KPN (which is about a 1000) is fortran >>>> programmers just to give an example. But also at supercomputers fortran >>>> is very important. >>>> 3) If you learn them C++ you achieve 3 objectives at the same time >>>> 3a - they learn a language they can later use >>>> 3b - you can show them the great things of object orientation >>>> in 50 line programs >>>> 3c - they are not fearing to program in C++ as they are familiar with it >>>> 4) In big companies decisions get taken by management. Not by programmers. >>>> Managers in general are doing what is good for their company. >>>> If statistics show that 80% of all programmers with very small shoe >>>> sizes will make buggy code, then in theory the law doesn't allow you >>>> to discriminate. However managers do not work like the law there. They >>>> fear hiring someone who writes buggy code, so they never hire someone >>>> with a small shoe size if that statistic would be the case. >>>> Same is true for Pascal. Pascal is for newbies, exactly as you say so. >>>> Therefore managers will not hire people who are good in pascal, because >>>> a manager always finds out the truth. With his questions to the programmer >>>> the programmer in the end will confess he's better in pascal than in >>>> C++, so the manager concludes he's a pascal coder. So the programmer >>>> deduces from that he gotta be a crappy coder. So he isn't hired. >>>> Managers work very instinctive and they should. They are there to prevent >>>> disasters for their company, not to play the advocate of the devil which >>>> will say that a coder isn't a bad coder unless you have clear proof >>>> of that. Trivially it's easier to not hire someone than to fire someone. >>>> 5) This really is important. In university and colleges they still do not >>>>understand a thing very well and that is that 99% of the time you are busy >>>>fixing bugs and 1% of the time you are busy creating something new. I will not >>>>say throwing someone in the deep is a good thing. I have no opinion there. >>>>But for sure it is better to learn to debug. Example at my own university out of >>>>all the years that i was there i saw only 1 course which had 1 sheet which said >>>>that debugging was important. >>>> >>>>All the other theories about debugging i have figured out myself. What is a >>>>boundschecker. How the debugger works and how to effectively write testbeds. >>>> >>>>Your simple programming language when preventing severe bugs will definitely >>>>create a bad coder. Someone who can't debug. That's a horror. >>>> >>>>If someone has followed your course i bet he can't debug. yet 99% of his time he >>>>will lose debugging in his programming career. >>>> >>>>Programmers just starting their program i have always this discussion with: >>>> >>>>"Did you let it print to a log file all the lines is searched with alfa and beta >>>>scores?" >>>> >>>>.. >>>> >>>>"Why not?" >>>> >>>>.. >>>> >>>>"SURE you must do that" >>>> >>>>.. >>>> >>>>"yes i am VERY sure you must do that. How can you fix a bug in your chess >>>>program if you do not know where it is and all you know is that it plays the >>>>wrong move?" >>>> >>>>How many more programmers who just started their chess engine i need to explain >>>>it to? They should learn this already at *school* IMHO. >>>> >>>>If you only teach someone to drive a car, why give him a flying license? >>>By that same token, if you are teaching someone to drive, do you need to teach >>>him on a Formula-1 Racecar? I agree that certain constructs in C++ are very >>>shocking the first few times you use them, and that it is good to have exposure >>>to them before you begin programming in "the real world" (whatever that means >>>;)) However, the goal of learning to program is not so much to learn "the only >>>language you'll ever need," but more to get comfortable with the concepts of >>>programming. I agree that in many cases, Java has unnecessary bits that need to >>>be included for a program to work correctly, but it also is very easy to >>>troubleshoot, which is something that you would want to have while learning. >>> >>>When I learned to swim, my parents didn't just throw me in the pool and say, >>>okay, start swimming... I would have drowned. You have to take a gradual >>>approach to learning. The initial classes could be taught in Java, and then, >>>once a good base is established, other languages could be taught/used. Would you >>>rather learn GUI programming in Java or MFC? >>> >>>Matt >> >>QT for linux, of course. Quite an excellent toolkit. And teaching beginners >>Java is pure sillyness. The classes will always focus on things like >>polymorphism and oh, isn't it great we can do *this* complicated language >>feature. IMHO, everyone should learn assembly first and C second. After that, >>its your choice, but at least you understand how your machine works. Of course, >>this is the view of a hardware guy <shrug>. >> >>anthony >> >>P.S. my favorite language is ML, but Zappa is in a mixture of C, C++, and >>assembly. > >I think that's the key... Deciding which language to teach/learn first is >basically a "religious" issue. I like Java not because of the OO stuff, but >rather because of the detailed error handling and the lack of memory management >crud. > >Matt Here i am seeing the big misunderstanding. The reality is that the language you write for a few years different code in, that this language is the language you'll use forever. If you after a few years finally know how to write JAVA you'll never ever in your life learn C or C++ anymore, unless you are at university/college for a year or 10. I am seeing a few persons who tried to move from delphi (pascal) to C++ and they simply aren't managing. On the other hand a few C coders who write delphi do it without effort. I know good fortran coders who effortlessly can write C too. In fact some translated some major applications for their companies to C. Best regards, Vincent
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