Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:48:01 08/01/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 31, 2003 at 19:46:29, Russell Reagan wrote: >On July 31, 2003 at 18:20:47, Matthew White wrote: > >>I realize that they are essentially the same. The reason why I lean towards Java >>is the fact that if you read past the end of an array in Java, you get an >>ArrayOutOfBounds exception with the line number where the exception occurred. In >>C/C++ you get the obscure "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)." That scared the >>hell out of me as a student, having no clue what a core was... I just think that >>Java is a friendlier intro... >> >>Matt > >Surely fellow students, TAs, or the professor could have explained what a >segmentation fault was and why it happened in your program. So I don't think >that's a valid reason to prefer java. Besides, I think there are languages that >have better error descriptions than java if that's your aim. Actually, this has been a criticism forever. In 1970 we were using IBM fortran compilers (fortran G and fortran H depending on how much memory the machine had). Students hated them. For students we used WATFOR, which was (a) a load/go compiler that was much faster and (b) it gave precise run-time errors referring to a specific source program line number. Poor diagnostics is not a characteristic of the _language_. It is a characteristic of the _compiler_. > >I also wonder which is better in the long run. Wouldn't it be better for you to >have the initial "shock" of seeing a segmentation fault, then learn what it is >and why it happens? I think that thinking java is better because you don't have >to deal with real world issues does more to hinder than help. If you and the >professors followed that same line of thinking throughout your schooling, you'd >go to work fresh out of school and *then* you'd see a segmentation fault and now >instead of getting a bad grade on one homework, you lose your job. > >Maybe java is better than C as a very first language, but that isn't a very good >reason to use it as a first language IMO, because there are plenty of languages >that are more beginner friendly than java, and I don't think finding a perfect >beginners language is necessarily a great advantage anyway. BASIC would probably >be significantly easier to learn than java, just like java might be easier to >learn than C because you don't have to worry about segmentation faults, but in >the long run I don't think it's a good idea for everyone to take their first >programming steps in BASIC, because you can develop some bad habits. > >I agree with Bob. It's best to learn what you're going to use first, regardless >of what that is. For most people it will probably be C/C++. If you don't learn >it well, that is either your fault for not being a good student, or the >professor's fault for not teaching it well. IMO, that's kind of like saying "C++ >is a bad language because I don't know how to use it."
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