Author: Harald Faber
Date: 02:01:30 08/10/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 10, 2003 at 04:51:49, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 10, 2003 at 03:43:05, Harald Faber wrote: > >>On August 10, 2003 at 02:24:47, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 09, 2003 at 19:11:16, Harald Faber wrote: >>> >>>>On August 09, 2003 at 05:55:43, Tony Hedlund wrote: >>>> >>>>>How can J8 allow game 14 to end as a draw? >>>> >>>> >>>>This is no serious question, isn't it? >>>>It has been posted and mentioned approx. 1,000,000 times. It is the problem of >>>>incomplete tablebases. AFAIK you/SSDF uses the "Fritz Endgame Turbo". Based on >>>>the Chessbase marketing it consists of 4 CD-roms with "the most important >>>>endgame tablebases". Based on what you saw in this game, what many many others - >>>>include me - have seen in similar positions, it is crap. >>>>Let me ask you a question. If your answer is yes, do I win a price? >>>>Here is the US-$1,000,000 question: >>>>Are you missing at least one of these files in your tablebase-directory? >>>> >>>>kqbkp.nbb.emd >>>>kqbkp.nbw.emd >>>>kqbkn.nbb.emd >>>>kqbkn.nbw.emd >>>>kqbkb.nbb.emd >>>>kqbkb.nbw.emd >>>>kqbkr.nbb.emd >>>>kqbkr.nbw.emd >>>>kqbkq.nbb.emd >>>>kqbkq.nbw.emd >>>> >>>> >>>>If you had them all(!), Junior 8 would have mated. >>> >>>Did you look at the game? >> >> >>Uri, >>how else would I know of the concretely missing tablebases? >>BTW I expand my list with kqkpp.nbb.emd and kqkpp.nbw.emd. ;-) >>See the reason below. ;-) >> >> >>>Junior8 blundered in a position when there were 6 pieces in the board >>>and there was no winning capture that leads directly to tablebase position >>>(the only possible capture in the game QxP could lead to a draw and Junior8 did >>>not draw because of playing it) >> >> >>OK, Uri, the great "non-believer". >>I loaded this game into MY Junior 8. Guess what? >>Plays: 89.Be5 #7/8. >>Shall I post the mate lines MY Junior with ALL 5-man plays? >>A) 89...Kh7 90.Qxg7# >>B) 89...Kh6 90.Qxg7+ Kh5 91.Bf6 e5 92.Qg5# >>C) 89...Kh5 90.Qxg7 Kh4 91.Qg6 Kh3 92.Qg3# >>D) 89...Kg5 90.Qf3 >>and now >>1. 90...Kg6 91.Qg4+ Kh6 (91...Kf7 92.Qf4+ Ke7 93.Qg5+ Kd7 94.Qxg7+ Ke8 95.Kc6 >>Kd8 96.Qf8# etc.) 92.Qxg7+ Kh5 93.Bf6 e5 94.Qg5# >>2. 90...Kh6 91.Qg4 g5 92.Bf6 Kg6 93.Qxg5+ Kf7 94.Qg7+ Ke8 95.Qe7# >>3. 90...Kh4 91.Qg3+ Kh5 92.Bf4 and 93.Qg5# >> >>Junior 8 also plays 90.Be5+! >>If black takes the bishop, voila! Perfect TB position kqkpp. >>Do you NOW believe that it HAS to do with missing tablebases? > >I know about tablebases problem under chessbase when the interface controls the >game and not the engine in tablebases position. > >My point is that in the relevant case there was no 5 piece tablebases position >so the interface never took control. > >This was not a case when the engine got a tablebases position and could not win >it so the problem is not missing tablebases. > >> >> >>>Here is the final position >>> >>>[D]2Q5/1K4p1/4pk2/8/8/8/7B/8 w - - 0 92 >>> >>>Are you sure that the problem is a tablebases problem? >> >> >>YES!!! Such games have been posted about 1,000,000 times which cannot be >>reproduced with a COMPLETE set of tbs. > >I know about games when an engine got KPP vs KP but could not win because of not >having KQP vs KP but I did not know about games when the engine never got a >tablebases position and missed a simple win because of not having tablebases(I >am talking about a simple win and missing some transition to a tablebases >position that is not trivial to win without tablebases is not defined by me as a >simple win) >> >> >>>I think that the problem is the engine and I also do not agree that the ssdf has >>>to give the engines all the tablebases because a good engine should know to play >>>with part of the tablebases. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>Uri, >>you have always a special own point of view, but this problem of missing >>tablebases is not Junior-only. Maybe Tony can try some other engine on this game >>too?! > >I am sure that in this case most engines will have no problem even with the same >missing tablebases. > >Uri This is what I cannot check but maybe Tony will do. Anyway I have a completely different opinion about it than you have.
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