Author: Tony Hedlund
Date: 02:35:02 08/12/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 11, 2003 at 01:36:45, Harald Faber wrote:
>On August 10, 2003 at 13:57:00, Amir Ban wrote:
>
>>On August 09, 2003 at 19:11:16, Harald Faber wrote:
>>
>>>On August 09, 2003 at 05:55:43, Tony Hedlund wrote:
>>>
>>>>How can J8 allow game 14 to end as a draw?
>>>
>>>
>>>This is no serious question, isn't it?
>>>It has been posted and mentioned approx. 1,000,000 times. It is the problem of
>>>incomplete tablebases. AFAIK you/SSDF uses the "Fritz Endgame Turbo". Based on
>>>the Chessbase marketing it consists of 4 CD-roms with "the most important
>>>endgame tablebases". Based on what you saw in this game, what many many others -
>>>include me - have seen in similar positions, it is crap.
>>>Let me ask you a question. If your answer is yes, do I win a price?
>>>Here is the US-$1,000,000 question:
>>>Are you missing at least one of these files in your tablebase-directory?
>>>
>>>kqbkp.nbb.emd
>>>kqbkp.nbw.emd
>>>kqbkn.nbb.emd
>>>kqbkn.nbw.emd
>>>kqbkb.nbb.emd
>>>kqbkb.nbw.emd
>>>kqbkr.nbb.emd
>>>kqbkr.nbw.emd
>>>kqbkq.nbb.emd
>>>kqbkq.nbw.emd
>>>
>>>
>>>If you had them all(!), Junior 8 would have mated.
>>>
>>>Don't you think it is time to consider
>>>a) adding the missing 5-man files or
>>>b) kick the existing 5-man?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I don't understand this explanation. Are you able to recreate this by omitting
>>some 5-man files ?
>
>
>Didn't try it. Have removed the files above from the tb path now but also cannot
>reproduce. Maybe some (more) other tb files have to be removed?
>
>
>>The log doesn't show what J8 was thinking. Apparently it thought it was mating ,
>>because it played all moves in 0 seconds.
{192MB, Junior8.ctg, SSDF
} 1. d4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 2. c4 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} e6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 3. Nc3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bb4 {[%emt 0:00:00]
} 4. f3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 5. a3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bxc3+ {
[%emt 0:00:00]} 6. bxc3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} c5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 7. cxd5 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} Nxd5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 8. dxc5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa5 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} 9. e4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ne7 {(Sf6) [%emt 0:00:00]} 10. Be3 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} O-O {[%emt 0:00:00]} 11. Qb3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nbc6 {
(Dc7) [%emt 0:10:40]} 12. Nh3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} e5 {[%emt 0:05:06]} 13. Nf2 {
[%eval 81,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Be6 {[%emt 0:04:28]} 14. Bc4 {
[%eval 86,19] [%emt 0:01:35]} Bxc4 {[%emt 0:04:55]} 15. Qxc4 {
[%eval 73,19] [%emt 0:00:01]} Rad8 {[%emt 0:05:47]} 16. O-O {
[%eval 77,20] [%emt 0:00:01]} Rd7 {[%emt 0:03:44]} 17. a4 {
[%eval 74,19] [%emt 0:00:06]} Qc7 {(Tfd8) [%emt 0:02:28]} 18. Rad1 {
[%eval 79,20] [%emt 0:05:50]} Rfd8 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 19. Rxd7 {
[%eval 77,20] [%emt 0:08:42]} Rxd7 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 20. h4 {
[%eval 74,21] [%emt 0:07:17]} Qd8 {(Sg6) [%emt 0:03:12]} 21. h5 {
[%eval 90,20] [%emt 0:03:07]} h6 {[%emt 0:04:45]} 22. f4 {
[%eval 79,20] [%emt 0:00:25]} Kh8 {(Sa5) [%emt 0:04:01]} 23. Ng4 {
[%eval 120,19] [%emt 0:05:55]} exf4 {[%emt 0:02:26]} 24. Bxf4 {
[%eval 126,17] [%emt 0:02:38]} Rd1 {(Sc8) [%emt 0:04:05]} 25. Nf2 {
[%eval 146,17] [%emt 0:03:30]} Rxf1+ {[%emt 0:03:52]} 26. Kxf1 {
[%eval 139,18] [%emt 0:03:20]} Qe8 {(Dg8) [%emt 0:04:39]} 27. Bd6 {
[%eval 134,18] [%emt 0:05:02]} Na5 {(f5) [%emt 0:00:01]} 28. Qa2 {
[%eval 127,19] [%emt 0:04:06]} Nec6 {[%emt 0:04:57]} 29. Qd5 {
[%eval 115,19] [%emt 0:01:43]} Qe6 {[%emt 0:01:05]} 30. Ke1 {
[%eval 105,19] [%emt 0:03:37]} Kg8 {[%emt 0:16:07]} 31. Nd1 {
[%eval 86,21] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qg4 {(Sc4) [%emt 0:03:59]} 32. Ne3 {
[%eval 151,18] [%emt 0:03:48]} Qh4+ {[%emt 0:01:35]} 33. Ke2 {
[%eval 143,18] [%emt 0:01:24]} Nd8 {[%emt 0:07:03]} 34. Bg3 {
[%eval 137,17] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qe7 {[%emt 0:05:26]} 35. Nf5 {
[%eval 100,18] [%emt 0:17:34]} Qg5 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 36. Nd4 {
[%eval 109,17] [%emt 0:08:41]} Qg4+ {[%emt 0:02:08]} 37. Nf3 {
[%eval 99,17] [%emt 0:02:56]} Nac6 {(Se6) [%emt 0:02:21]} 38. Kf2 {
[%eval 90,19] [%emt 0:03:55]} Qc8 {(Se6) [%emt 0:00:01]} 39. Bd6 {
[%eval 136,19] [%emt 0:06:05]} Ne6 {[%emt 0:02:54]} 40. Ke3 {
[%eval 130,20] [%emt 0:07:04]} Qd8 {[%emt 0:04:38]} 41. Qc4 {
[%eval 117,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qf6 {(a6) [%emt 0:01:58]} 42. Qb3 {
[%eval 142,18] [%emt 0:02:55]} Na5 {[%emt 0:02:09]} 43. Qb4 {
[%eval 122,18] [%emt 0:02:00]} Nc6 {[%emt 0:01:04]} 44. Qb2 {
[%eval 124,17] [%emt 0:01:58]} b6 {(Sa5) [%emt 0:00:01]} 45. cxb6 {
[%eval 167,16] [%emt 0:03:01]} axb6 {[%emt 0:01:35]} 46. Qb3 {
[%eval 135,18] [%emt 0:03:54]} Na5 {[%emt 0:03:46]} 47. Qb4 {
[%eval 124,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qd8 {[%emt 0:07:21]} 48. e5 {
[%eval 108,19] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qc8 {[%emt 0:07:52]} 49. Kd3 {
[%eval 104,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Kh8 {(Da8) [%emt 0:02:11]} 50. Nd2 {
[%eval 123,16] [%emt 0:04:27]} Qd8 {(Sb7) [%emt 0:02:47]} 51. Kc2 {
[%eval 127,17] [%emt 0:03:24]} Nc6 {[%emt 0:04:40]} 52. Qc4 {
[%eval 126,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qa8 {(Dd7) [%emt 0:06:30]} 53. g3 {
[%eval 120,18] [%emt 0:05:59]} Kg8 {[%emt 0:02:09]} 54. Kd3 {
[%eval 127,18] [%emt 0:02:04]} Nc5+ {[%emt 0:03:06]} 55. Ke3 {
[%eval 120,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Ne6 {(Dxa4) [%emt 0:02:16]} 56. Qb5 {
[%eval 169,18] [%emt 0:02:58]} Kh8 {(Scd8) [%emt 0:01:56]} 57. g4 {
[%eval 157,18] [%emt 0:05:09]} Kg8 {(Sg5) [%emt 0:04:22]} 58. Nc4 {
[%eval 173,18] [%emt 0:12:20]} Ncd8 {(Sa7) [%emt 0:00:01]} 59. Nxb6 {
[%eval 158,16] [%emt 0:05:22]} Qg2 {[%emt 0:04:00]} 60. Nc8 {
[%eval 155,16] [%emt 0:09:41]} Qxg4 {[%emt 0:01:20]} 61. Ne7+ {
[%eval 136,15] [%emt 0:04:19]} Kh7 {[%emt 0:01:30]} 62. a5 {
[%eval 133,15] [%emt 0:03:43]} Qg5+ {[%emt 0:02:28]} 63. Kd3 {
[%eval 137,15] [%emt 0:00:59]} Qxh5 {[%emt 0:02:47]} 64. Kc2 {
[%eval 134,16] [%emt 0:07:03]} Qh2+ {[%emt 0:10:01]} 65. Kb3 {
[%eval 139,18] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qd2 {(Dh1) [%emt 0:03:51]} 66. Qc4 {
[%eval 169,15] [%emt 0:02:27]} Qd1+ {[%emt 0:04:22]} 67. Kb2 {
[%eval 199,17] [%emt 0:00:01]} Kh8 {[%emt 0:06:02]} 68. a6 {
[%eval 242,17] [%emt 0:03:58]} Qd2+ {[%emt 0:00:01]} 69. Kb3 {
[%eval 244,17] [%emt 0:06:51]} Qc1 {(Dd1+) [%emt 0:00:12]} 70. Ka4 {
[%eval 244,15] [%emt 0:01:59]} Qg1 {(h5) [%emt 0:05:23]} 71. Nd5 {
[%eval 261,17] [%emt 0:05:28]} Qa7 {(h5) [%emt 0:02:34]} 72. Qc8 {
[%eval 314,17] [%emt 0:03:17]} Qf2 {(Kh7) [%emt 0:06:42]} 73. Nb4 {
[%eval 365,17] [%emt 0:03:01]} Qb6 {[%emt 0:01:19]} 74. c4 {
[%eval 476,18] [%emt 0:02:40]} Kh7 {[%emt 0:04:01]} 75. c5 {
[%eval 476,19] [%emt 0:12:19]} Qa7 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 76. Ka5 {
[%eval 559,18] [%emt 0:05:22]} h5 {[%emt 0:04:15]} 77. Nc6 {
[%eval 613,20] [%emt 0:00:01]} Nxc6+ {[%emt 0:02:26]} 78. Qxc6 {
[%eval 643,18] [%emt 0:00:33]} h4 {[%emt 0:01:22]} 79. Qb7 {
[%eval 673,19] [%emt 0:00:01]} Qxb7 {[%emt 0:01:23]} 80. axb7 {
[%eval 1274,19] [%emt 0:00:01]} Nd8 {[%emt 0:01:05]} 81. Kb6 {
[%eval 1334,23] [%emt 0:01:16]} Nxb7 {[%emt 0:02:12]} 82. Kxb7 {
[%eval 1394,23] [%emt 0:01:46]} h3 {[%emt 0:27:36]} 83. e6 {
[%eval 1814,28] [%emt 0:00:55]} fxe6 {(f6) [%emt 0:09:51]} 84. c6 {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:01]} Kh6 {(h2) [%emt 0:04:01]} 85. c7 {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} h2 {[%emt 0:01:16]} 86. Bxh2 {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:01:16]} Kg5 {(g5) [%emt 0:00:55]} 87. c8=Q {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} Kf6 {(e5) [%emt 0:00:58]} 88. Qf8+ {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} Kg6 {[%emt 0:00:54]} 89. Qc8 {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:54]} Kf6 {(Kf5) [%emt 0:00:25]} 90. Qd8+ {
[%eval 32757,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} Kf5 {[%emt 0:01:00]} 91. Qc8 {
[%eval 32757,6] [%emt 0:01:00]} Kf6 {(g5) [%emt 0:00:22]} 1/2-1/2
>Be5 is played here in several variations.
>To be honest, such games let me doubt a bit in the integrity of the results.
>Anyone have the time to search for draw games in the SSDF database with maximum
>6 pieces on the board and look if one side had a mate but drew?
It have happened before.
Tony
>>I remember a long time ago that engines had 50-move rule problems due to TB
>>handling, but not problems of walking into repetition.
>>
>>Amir
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