Author: Jens Kahlenberg
Date: 12:02:11 08/19/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 2003 at 13:36:12, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 19, 2003 at 12:14:04, Jens Kahlenberg wrote: > >>On August 19, 2003 at 09:21:11, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 18, 2003 at 14:47:26, Jens Kahlenberg wrote: >>> >>>>On August 18, 2003 at 01:27:55, Uri Blass wrote: [snip] >>>>>Fritz3 already got the IM norm on p90 at 120/40 time control. >>>>>even without considering software improvements >>>>>3 minutes per move on p90 is equivalent to 10 seconds per move with the hardware >>>>>of today >>>>> >>>>>if we assume that 10 seconds per move is 2400 than 2 seconds per move is above >>>>>2000 even if you assume 100 elo for doubling the speed and I did not consider >>>>>the fact that the human play worse when (s)he has less time to ponder and that >>>>>the computer play better when it has more time to ponder. >>>>> >>>>>My guess is that when you consider also the software improvement from fritz3 to >>>>>the top programs of today you get that the top programs of today can perform at >>>>>IM level if they are allowed to use only 2 seconds per move. >>>> >>>> >>>>Hi Uri, >>>> >>>>I don't think so. IMHO even FM-level should be enough to survive the middlegame >>>>generally with a not totally drawn position if top engines have only 2 seconds >>>>per move, because they can't get deep enough to outsearch their opponent in >>>>tactical issues. In the endgame the engines will have a hard time to even draw a >>>>drawn game at that rate of play. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Jens >>> >>>Fritz3(p90) already did the IM norm in 1994. >>> >>>Now even if you assume no pondering of more than 2 seconds Fritz3(p90) 180 >>>seconds per move is equivalent to Fritz3(hardware that is 20 times faster) 9 >>>seconds per move >>>and Fritz3(9 seconds per move) is probably at similiar level to top programs of >>>today (2 seconds per move) >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>If i get your "calculation" right, Fritz3 on usual hardware (not those 8-16 >>processors SMP-machines) _must_ have the strength to compete with Kasparov at >>normal rate of play. Ergo: Top engines on SMP-hardware _must_ kill him?! > >No > >Fritz3 on p90 is at FM/IM level >Fritz3 on usual hardware is probably GM level(anti computer experts may beat it >but most players play their normal game when they play a computer). Sorry Uri, i didn't know that your exact calculation just holds for one direction. Shame on me because i estimated the stupid other direction: Fritz3 on p90 is IM (2350 ELO) at normal rate of play. And doubling the speed four times seduced me to the wrong assumption that Fritz3 on a 1.44 GHz machine should reach 2750 ELO ... enough to compete with Kasparov. But now i fear that you must've been right as took the other direction and wrote: > Fritz3 already got the IM norm on p90 at 120/40 time control > control. Even without considering software improvements > 3 minutes per move on p90 is equivalent to 10 seconds per > move with the hardware of today > > if we assume that 10 seconds per move is 2400 than 2 seconds > per move is above 2000 even if you assume 100 elo for doubling > the speed Perhaps i'll never understand this difficult ELO algebra for computer chess :-( >>You missed some points ... e. g. you can setup an equal endgame position and >>play against Fritz at 2 seconds per move and let's say half an hour for >>yourself. If your rating is above 2100 you shouldn't have any problems to draw >>or win and you'll rarely loose. So the only question is how to survive the >>middlegame ... and that's why my "calculation" adds _some_ ELO points to 2100 >>and lifts the human strength to FM-level. I neglected pondering, because imho >>"weak" humans don't play computer moves too often. > >I think that the middle game is more important and good chances that even a >master will not be able to get equal endgame. Depending on master's style and opening choice you might be right or wrong :-) Best regards, Jens
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