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Subject: Re: Junior 8 Test Complete: J8 vs CM9k +23/-8/=19 (65%) +107 elo

Author: Drexel,Michael

Date: 18:42:12 08/24/03

Go up one level in this thread


On August 24, 2003 at 20:47:19, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:

>On August 24, 2003 at 17:48:45, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>On August 24, 2003 at 12:21:27, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>
>>>On August 24, 2003 at 11:57:28, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 24, 2003 at 11:28:29, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 24, 2003 at 10:38:31, Anson T J wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>All PGN games are available for download and view on the following website:
>>>>>>http://mysite.freeserve.com/intagrand/junior8test/index.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Test Configuration
>>>>>>Hardware:  Dual AMD MP 2400+ 512 MB Ram
>>>>>>Software:  Junior 8 GUI & 3-5 piece EGTB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Engine Details
>>>>>>Processor:     1 CPU each (AMD MP2400+)
>>>>>>Hash:          128 MB hash each
>>>>>>Ponder Move:   On
>>>>>>Books:         Native Books / CM9k (F6's general.ctg)
>>>>>>Time Control:  40/2Hrs + 20/1Hr + Rest/30 mins
>>>>>>Rounds:        50 games vs each opponent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Opponent:         Junior 8's Score:
>>>>>>Shredder 7.04     +18/-12/=20 (56%) +41  elo
>>>>>>Fritz 8           +17/-11/=22 (56%) +41  elo
>>>>>>Hiarcs 8          +28/-8/=14  (70%) +147 elo
>>>>>>CM 9000 (SKR)     +17/-10/=23 (57%) +48  elo
>>>>>>CM 9000           +23/-8/=19  (65%) +107 elo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This concludes my Junior 8 Summer Test. I hope people will find the games and
>>>>>>results useful. Sorry that I will not be able to run any more test games for a
>>>>>>while as I can no longer spare the CPU time. A fine performance by Junior 8
>>>>>>here. Also congrats to the "SKR creators" as the SKR personality of Chess Master
>>>>
>>>>>>9000 performed 59 elo points stronger than the default settings.
>>>>>There is a big problem with this match: You did not use the Chessmaster opening
>>>>>book for CM .This is like separating the head from body.Opening books are indeed >part of the program.
>>>>
>>>>     There was nothing wrong with using the general.ctg instead of the
>>>>     CM9000.obk since the latter book is in any case somewhat weaker.
>>>>     And if Anson had played with the CM9-GUI we [all chess people] would
>>>>     not have the pleasure to follow the games live.
>>>>     Kurt
>>>>
>>>>>Also I should note that (and I have said this many
>>>>>times) that comp vs comp matches prove nothing about how a program will do
>>>>>against humans:That is Program A may be stronger than program B by 100 Elo in
>>>>>Comp vs Comp ;but Program B may be stronger by 100 Elo than program A when
>>>>>playing only humans.
>>>>
>>>>Both Fritz and Junior were disasters in the matches against Kasparov and
>>>>Kramnik.
>>>>
>>>>     How can you argue that way. You seem to forget one thing: both programs
>>>>     have drawn their matches vs the strongest chess players of the world.
>>>>     Kurt
>>>>
>>>>In any case I do not see the points in these
>>>>>Comp Matches(We need more human vs Comp) as SSDF is doing a great job pitting
>>>>>programs against each other.
>>>Kurt : the reason they drew is beacaus both Kasparov and Kramnik made very
>>>elementary errors in the games they lost .Note: that I am not suggesting
>>>conspiracy.Look at game 5 vs Garry 10...Bxh2+ by DJ is unsound.
>>
>>AFAIK nobody has proven so far that 10...Bxh2+ is unsound.
>>This would require a line which is a forced win for white.
>>GM Shipov and GM Hubner were not able to come up with a convincing refutation.
>>
>>I have posted
>>>extensive analysis(A HIARCS SHOOTOUT AT PLY13) showing indeed that this comes
>>>to a loss had Garry played 16.g3.(the Shootout took 2 days to Complete on a fast
>>
>>ridiculous
>>
>>Michael
>>
>>>Computer).Also look at DJs Rae8?? in Game 1.Look at Bf8?? by Fritz against
>>>Kramnik in game 2 and a3?? by Fritz against Kramnik in game 3.There is no
>>>doubt in My mind that Fritz and Junior are not as strong against human players
>>>as some of the lessor known Programs .However Chessbase politics has had these
>>>2 programs playing humans.The stongest programs in the World against humans
>>>are HIARCS CHESSMASTER and MCHESS.
>>>                 am
>What is ridiculous guy? huh?

Your opinion is ridiculous...

Chess is a logical game and if you are down in
>Material you should expect to lose.13 plys is very deep for a chess game .After
>16.g3 it is a lose for Black;the HIARCS shoot out proves this.

The most important factor in Chess is Kingsafety and not Material.
13 ply is not very deep at all in chess.
HIARCS 8 has no clue at all here. It does not understand, even after a very long
search, that 16...Nh2+ is the critical variation and not 16...Qh2+.
Your shootout is therefore meaningless and proves nothing.

Michael




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