Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 02:15:18 08/25/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 24, 2003 at 22:19:34, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: >On August 24, 2003 at 21:42:12, Drexel,Michael wrote: > >>On August 24, 2003 at 20:47:19, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: >> >>>On August 24, 2003 at 17:48:45, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>> >>>>On August 24, 2003 at 12:21:27, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 24, 2003 at 11:57:28, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 24, 2003 at 11:28:29, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 24, 2003 at 10:38:31, Anson T J wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>All PGN games are available for download and view on the following website: >>>>>>>>http://mysite.freeserve.com/intagrand/junior8test/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Test Configuration >>>>>>>>Hardware: Dual AMD MP 2400+ 512 MB Ram >>>>>>>>Software: Junior 8 GUI & 3-5 piece EGTB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Engine Details >>>>>>>>Processor: 1 CPU each (AMD MP2400+) >>>>>>>>Hash: 128 MB hash each >>>>>>>>Ponder Move: On >>>>>>>>Books: Native Books / CM9k (F6's general.ctg) >>>>>>>>Time Control: 40/2Hrs + 20/1Hr + Rest/30 mins >>>>>>>>Rounds: 50 games vs each opponent >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Opponent: Junior 8's Score: >>>>>>>>Shredder 7.04 +18/-12/=20 (56%) +41 elo >>>>>>>>Fritz 8 +17/-11/=22 (56%) +41 elo >>>>>>>>Hiarcs 8 +28/-8/=14 (70%) +147 elo >>>>>>>>CM 9000 (SKR) +17/-10/=23 (57%) +48 elo >>>>>>>>CM 9000 +23/-8/=19 (65%) +107 elo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This concludes my Junior 8 Summer Test. I hope people will find the games and >>>>>>>>results useful. Sorry that I will not be able to run any more test games for a >>>>>>>>while as I can no longer spare the CPU time. A fine performance by Junior 8 >>>>>>>>here. Also congrats to the "SKR creators" as the SKR personality of Chess Master >>>>>> >>>>>>>>9000 performed 59 elo points stronger than the default settings. >>>>>>>There is a big problem with this match: You did not use the Chessmaster opening >>>>>>>book for CM .This is like separating the head from body.Opening books are indeed >part of the program. >>>>>> >>>>>> There was nothing wrong with using the general.ctg instead of the >>>>>> CM9000.obk since the latter book is in any case somewhat weaker. >>>>>> And if Anson had played with the CM9-GUI we [all chess people] would >>>>>> not have the pleasure to follow the games live. >>>>>> Kurt >>>>>> >>>>>>>Also I should note that (and I have said this many >>>>>>>times) that comp vs comp matches prove nothing about how a program will do >>>>>>>against humans:That is Program A may be stronger than program B by 100 Elo in >>>>>>>Comp vs Comp ;but Program B may be stronger by 100 Elo than program A when >>>>>>>playing only humans. >>>>>> >>>>>>Both Fritz and Junior were disasters in the matches against Kasparov and >>>>>>Kramnik. >>>>>> >>>>>> How can you argue that way. You seem to forget one thing: both programs >>>>>> have drawn their matches vs the strongest chess players of the world. >>>>>> Kurt >>>>>> >>>>>>In any case I do not see the points in these >>>>>>>Comp Matches(We need more human vs Comp) as SSDF is doing a great job pitting >>>>>>>programs against each other. >>>>>Kurt : the reason they drew is beacaus both Kasparov and Kramnik made very >>>>>elementary errors in the games they lost .Note: that I am not suggesting >>>>>conspiracy.Look at game 5 vs Garry 10...Bxh2+ by DJ is unsound. >>>> >>>>AFAIK nobody has proven so far that 10...Bxh2+ is unsound. >>>>This would require a line which is a forced win for white. >>>>GM Shipov and GM Hubner were not able to come up with a convincing refutation. >>>> >>>>I have posted >>>>>extensive analysis(A HIARCS SHOOTOUT AT PLY13) showing indeed that this comes >>>>>to a loss had Garry played 16.g3.(the Shootout took 2 days to Complete on a fast >>>> >>>>ridiculous >>>> >>>>Michael >>>> >>>>>Computer).Also look at DJs Rae8?? in Game 1.Look at Bf8?? by Fritz against >>>>>Kramnik in game 2 and a3?? by Fritz against Kramnik in game 3.There is no >>>>>doubt in My mind that Fritz and Junior are not as strong against human players >>>>>as some of the lessor known Programs .However Chessbase politics has had these >>>>>2 programs playing humans.The stongest programs in the World against humans >>>>>are HIARCS CHESSMASTER and MCHESS. >>>>> am >>>What is ridiculous guy? huh? >> >>Your opinion is ridiculous... >> >>Chess is a logical game and if you are down in >>>Material you should expect to lose.13 plys is very deep for a chess game .After >>>16.g3 it is a lose for Black;the HIARCS shoot out proves this. >> >>The most important factor in Chess is Kingsafety and not Material. >>13 ply is not very deep at all in chess. >>HIARCS 8 has no clue at all here. It does not understand, even after a very long >>search, that 16...Nh2+ is the critical variation and not 16...Qh2+. >>Your shootout is therefore meaningless and proves nothing. >> >>Michael >You got so much to learn Almost all engines choose 16..Nh2+ before settleing >for 16....Qh2+.It seems that you do not do much chess analysis with programs >in addition to being a very weak player. Ummm, GM Shipov, GM Hubner, Shredder 7.04, Deep Junior 8 and me are all very weak and wannabe-Master Ali Mirafzalis outdated Hiarcs 8 program understands the position much better of course. :) A 2300(FIDE) player might be very weak for 2800 players, he is very strong compared to 1600 players however. Michael GM Shipov: "Check out one of the possible lines: 16... Nh2+ (the variation 16...Qh2 17.f5 h5 18.e4 dxe4+ 19.Bxe4 Nd7 20.Bg5 c5 leads to a crazy position in which, objectively speaking, White should win, but only a computer can find the right path... ) 17.Kf2 (Bad is 17.Kg2 Qh3+ 18.Kg1 Ng4 19.Rf2 Nxf2 20.Kxf2 Qh2+ 21.Kf3 in addition to having a perpetual in hand, Black can continue its attack with 21...Nd7!) 17...Ng4+ 18.Ke1 (the variation 18.Kg2 Qh2+ 19.Kf3 h5 brings about the position from the 16...Qh2 line, but Black has an extra tempo. The white king is in for a real ordeal.) 18...Qh3! Exactly this move. It is very important to attack the f1 rook, to foil the white king's run along the first rank to the a2-square.All the forced lines stop here and the game takes a positional course. Black should complete its development and build up pressure in the center. It is not that easy for White to consolidate his position and evacuate the king to a safe place. No doubt, Garry would love to play this position with Black. On the other hand, floundering on the first rank even with an extra piece is not pleasant work. The chances of making a fatal mistake are too great! For example 19.Rg1 Nd7 20. Kd1 Nf2+ 21.Kc1 Nf6 22. Nd1 (22.Kb1? Nxd3 23.Qxd3 Bf5) 22...Nxd3 23.Qxd3 Bf5 24. Qb3 Qh2 25.Ndc3 Ng4! and the white king is under a mating attack after all. More stubborn is 19. Nd1! Nh2 20.Rf2 (again it is very dangerous to spend a tempo on capturing the h7-pawn 20.Bxh7+ ) 20...Bg4 21.Bc3 Nf3+ 22.Rxf3 Bxf3 23. Kd2 Nd7 24.Kc1 Nf6 (The immediate 24...Be4 should be considered as well) 25. Kb1 Be4!? (Black can also snatch a pawn - 25...Bxe2 26.Qxe2 Qxg3) 26.Ka2 a5 Black has many positional pluses and material is about equal. I can't rule out the possibility that further analysis will find better continuations for White. It is absolutely clear, though, that a human would not have had great chances to beat a machine in such a position. Actually, he would have more chances to lose" So GM Shipov thinks that 16...Qh2 is objectively lost and 16...Nh2+ leads to a position with many positional pluses for black. GM Hubner: "II 16...Dh2 17.f5 h5 18.e4. ich sehe nicht, wie Schwarz seinem Angriff entscheidende Kraft verleihen kann. III 16...Sh2+ 17.Kf2 Sg4+ 18.Ke1 Dh3. Dies scheint die aussichtsreichste Fortsetzung für Schwarz zu sein. Weiß hat mehrere plausible Entgegnungen: A) 19.Lf5 ist nicht empfehlenswert; Schwarz antwortet 19...Se3:. B) 19.e4 Dg2 gewährt dem Schwarzen ebenfalls eine Menge Gegenspiel: 20.Tg1 Df2+ 21.Kd1 Df3 usw. C) 19.Sd1 Ca) 19...Sd7 20.Sf2 Sf2: 21.Kf2: Dh2+ 22.Ke1 Sf6 23.f5. Weiß steht auf Gewinn. Cb) 19...Sh2 20.Lh7:+ Kh8 21.Tf2 Lg4 (21...g6 22.Lg6: fg6: 23.Dg6: ist hoffnungslos für Schwarz) 22.Ld3 Sf3+ 23.Tf3: Lf3: 24.Sf2 Dg2 25.Db3 b6 26.Tc1 Te6. Die Lage entbehrt der für Weiß wünschenswerten Klarheit. D) 19.Tg1 Da) 19...Sh2 20.Lh7:+ Kh8 21. Ld3 Sf3+ 22.Kf2: Sg1: 23.Tg1:. Weiß siegt mühelos Db) 19...Sd7 20.e4 Db1) 20...Sh2 21.e5 Sf3+ 22.Kf2 Sg1: 23.Tg1: mit Gewinnstellung für Weiß. Db2) 20...de4: 21.Se4 Dh2 Db21) 22.Kd1 Sdf6 23.Sf6:+ Sf6: 24.Te1 Lg4. Schwarz hat ausreichende Kompensation für das geopferte Material. Db22) 22.Tf1 Db221) 22...Sdf6 23.Sf6:+ Sf6: 24.f5. Es ist dem Weißen gelungen, den Damenläufer des Gegners am Eingreifen in den Kampf zu hindern; er hat Gewinnstellung. Db222) 22...Dg2 23.Lc1 Sh2 24.S2c3 Dc2: (24...Dg3:+ 25.Kd1 ist ungünstig für Schwarz) 25.Lc2: f5 26.Tf2 Sg4 27.Te2. Weiß hat das etwas bessere Endspiel." So GM Hubner thinks that 16...Nh2+ is the most promising continuation for black, leading to a slightly better endgame for white. Shredder 7.04: Kasparov,G - Deep Junior rnb1r1k1/pp3ppp/2p5/3p4/3P1Pnq/P1NBPKP1/1PQBN3/R4R2 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 16...Nxe3 17.gxh4 Bg4+ 18.Kf2 Kf8 ± (1.36) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 16...Nxe3 17.gxh4 Nxf1 +- (5.21) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 16...Nxe3 17.gxh4 Nxc2 18.Bxc2 Re3+ 19.Bxe3 Bg4+ 20.Kxg4 h5+ 21.Kxh5 +- (5.28) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Bxh7+ Qxh7 18.Rh1 Qxc2 19.Rh8+ Kxh8 = (-0.08) Depth: 1/10 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Bxh7+ Qxh7 18.Rh1 Qxc2 19.Rh8+ Kxh8 = (-0.08) Depth: 1/10 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.e4 dxe4+ 18.Bxe4 ² (0.31) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.e4 Nh2+ 18.Kf2 Nxf1 19.Rxf1 dxe4 20.Nxe4 = (0.13) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Rh1 Bd7 18.Rxh3 ² (0.38) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Rh1 Bd7 18.Rxh3 ± (0.88) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Qb1 Kf8 18.Bxh7 ± (0.86) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rc1 ² (0.57) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Kg2 Qh2+ 19.Kf3 a5 ² (0.33) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.e4 dxe4 20.Nxe4 ² (0.48) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.e4 dxe4+ 18.Nxe4 Nh2+ 19.Ke3 Nxf1+ 20.Rxf1 ² (0.43) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.e4 Nh2+ 18.Kf2 Rxe4 19.Bxe4 Qxf1+ 20.Rxf1 = (0.13) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Rh1 Nh2+ 18.Kf2 Ng4+ 19.Kg1 Rxe3 20.Rxh3 ² (0.38) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Rh1 Nh2+ 18.Kf2 Ng4+ 19.Kg1 Ne5 20.Rxh3 ± (0.88) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Qh3 17.Rh1 Nh2+ 18.Kf2 f5 19.Rag1 Bd7 20.b4 +- (1.53) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.Bxh7+ Qxh7 20.b4 Qxc2 +- (1.52) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.Bxh7+ Qxh7 20.Ng1 Qxc2 ± (1.17) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Kg2 Qh2+ 19.Kf3 a5 ² (0.33) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Qh5 17.Kg2 Nxe3+ 18.Kf2 Nxc2 19.Bxh7+ Kxh7 ² (0.32) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Qh5 17.Kg2 Nxe3+ 18.Bxe3 Rxe3 19.Kg1 = (0.03) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 16...Qh5 17.Rh1 Ne5+ 18.Kg2 Qf3+ 19.Kg1 Nxd3 20.Qxd3 Qe4 21.Nxe4 ² (0.28) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 16...Qh5 17.Rh1 Ne5+ 18.Kg2 Qf3+ 19.Kg1 Nxd3 20.Qxd3 Qe4 21.Nxe4 ± (0.78) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 16...Qh5 17.Rh1 Nxe3+ 18.Rxh5 Bg4+ 19.Kf2 Nxc2 20.Bxh7+ Kf8 21.Rh4 Nxa1 22.Rxg4 ± (1.32) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.Bxh7+ Qxh7 20.Rh1 Qxc2 ± (1.31) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.Bxh7+ Qxh7 20.Qf5 Bxf5 ± (0.96) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.e4 dxe4 20.Bxe4 Be6 21.Kd1 ² (0.53) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.Kd1 Nxe3+ 20.Bxe3 Rxe3 21.Nxd5 ² (0.40) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 186kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh2 19.e4 dxe4 20.Bxe4 f5 21.Bxf5 Bxf5 22.Qxf5 ² (0.51) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 460kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Kg2 Qh2+ 19.Kf3 h5 20.Bh7+ Kh8 21.Bf5 Na6 22.Bxc8 Raxc8 23.Qf5 Kg8 24.e4 dxe4+ 25.Nxe4 ² (0.44) Depth: 9/36 00:00:07 2356kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rb1 Bd7 20.e4 Nh2 21.Rf2 Ng4 22.Rf3 Qg2 ² (0.53) Depth: 10/33 00:00:17 5552kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 f6 20.e4 Nh2 21.Kd1 Nf3 22.Qb3 Nxg1 23.Qxd5+ cxd5 ² (0.39) Depth: 11/31 00:00:29 9440kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.b4 f5 20.Rg1 Bd7 21.b5 Nxe3 22.Bxe3 Rxe3 23.Kf2 ² (0.53) Depth: 12/35 00:00:43 14318kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.b4 f5 20.Bxf5 Nxe3 21.Bxh7+ Qxh7 22.Qxh7+ Kxh7 23.Rh1+ Kg8 24.Bxe3 Rxe3 25.Kd2 Re8 ² (0.44) Depth: 13/41 00:01:18 26227kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.b4 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Rf2 Ng4 22.Bd3 Nxf2 23.Kxf2 Qh2+ 24.Kf3 Qh5+ 25.Kg2 Qh3+ 26.Kg1 Bg4 27.e4 Bf3 ² (0.28) Depth: 14/42 00:02:39 53086kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.b4 Nh2 20.Bxh7+ Kh8 21.Rf2 Ng4 22.Bd3 Nxf2 23.Kxf2 Qh2+ 24.Kf3 Bh3 25.Rg1 Nd7 26.g4 Nf6 ² (0.35) Depth: 15/46 00:04:18 85771kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.b4 Nh2 20.Rg1 Nf3+ 21.Kf2 Nxg1 22.Rxg1 Nd7 23.b5 Nf6 24.bxc6 Ng4+ 25.Ke1 bxc6 ² (0.26) Depth: 16/48 00:09:36 191700kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 Nd7 20.e4 dxe4 21.Nxe4 Qh2 22.Bc4 Rxe4 23.Qxe4 Qf2+ 24.Kd1 Qxg1+ 25.Kc2 Ndf6 ² (0.36) Depth: 17/52 00:20:52 410444kN 16...Nh2+ 17.Kf2 Ng4+ 18.Ke1 Qh3 19.Rg1 Nd7 20.e4 dxe4 21.Nxe4 Ndf6 22.Nd6 Re6 23.Nc4 Re8 24.Ne5 Be6 ² (0.41) Depth: 18/50 00:52:29 1033199kN Shredder 7.04 does not seem to settle for 16...Qh2. Congrats SMK Michael
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