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Subject: Re: Crafty and NUMA

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 06:26:31 09/03/03

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On September 02, 2003 at 18:37:05, Jeremiah Penery wrote:

>On September 02, 2003 at 07:15:55, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>
>>
>><snip>
>>On September 01, 2003 at 09:39:55, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Any large (multi-node) SMP machine will have the same problem as NUMA with
>>>respect to inter-node latency.  SMP doesn't magically make node-to-node
>>>communication any faster.
>>
>>Pardon my saying so , but it looks like you have very little idea about SMP and
>>NUMA.
>
>If I didn't have some idea what I was talking about, I wouldn't be talking,
>unlike a lot of people in these discussions.
>
>> Refer to cray architecture , an opteron 8 way box architecture , and some
>>IBM supercomp cc-NUMA based system architecture docs for more info. I'm not
>
>Those machines are designed and built for *completely* different purposes.  You
>might as well compare the documentation for a P4 to that of an UltraSPARC, for
>all the good it would do you.
>
>>refering to just theoretical differences , or _only_ architecture differences -
>>but as a programmer - what details that need to be taken care of while writing
>>apps for such a system.
>
>And those details would be what, other than the aforementioned theoretical or
>architectural differences?
>
>>>But in reality, almost nobody uses a machine that big, especially for chess.
>>
>>The question was - can it be done , is it just a bunch of tweaks - not do you
>>have a system.
>>Answer : Yes it cn be done , needs lots of rewrite - not just "tweaks".
>
>Not really.  Bob said he already completed the changes, and it didn't really
>involve much.  Only instead of forking processes he had to manually start
>processes on each processor.  That really doesn't take much work.

But that's of course not true.

Why are you believing this nonsense?

>>>For any but the most extremely scalable architectures, there is significant
>>>diminishing returns when adding processors for chess playing.  I'd say that a
>>>very scalable 8-way SMP or NUMA (Opteron) machine will not be very much slower
>>>than even a 64-way Alpha/Itanium/xxx machine for chess.
>>
>>If badly programmed , then yes not much difference between a 8 proc box and a 64
>>proc box (actually it can be lower performing!).
>>Which is exactly my point , you need to design a program specifically to run on
>>such a system - not expect something that works on a 2 or 4 proc system and
>>expect it to work for a 64 proc system !
>
>The Alpha-Beta algorithm used for chess is a serial algorithm.  There's no
>getting around that.  The more processors you use, the less efficiency you will
>get, unless you use something else than Alpha-Beta.
>
>No matter how much you want to rewrite and "tweak" for a NUMA machine (or any
>kind of machine, for that matter), adding more and more processors is simply
>going to stop being beneficial at some point.



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