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Subject: Re: Deep Blue's 8.Nxe6 in Game 6 a forced win?

Author: Drexel,Michael

Date: 11:39:45 09/15/03

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On September 15, 2003 at 13:33:16, Uri Blass wrote:

>On September 15, 2003 at 12:20:17, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>On September 15, 2003 at 09:54:51, Jim Monaghan wrote:
>>
>>>On September 15, 2003 at 09:11:25, emerson tan wrote:
>>>
>>>>I played a 24 game match between Shredder 6.02 and Hiarcs 7.32 with the
>>>>following opening.
>>>>
>>>>1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bd3 e6 7.N1f3 h6 8.Nxe6
>>>>
>>>>Time control was 40/4hrs + 20/2hrs + 2hrs to finish on a 1.8 Ghz processor.
>>>>
>>>>Shredder played all the white games and Hiracs all the black games. The score
>>>>went 13-11 in Hiarcs favor. Only a couple of games were drawn.
>>>>
>>>>I choose Shredder 6.02 to have white because it likes whites position and
>>>>without an opening book, it will play the 8.Nxe6 sacrifice. Also, Shredder has a
>>>>positional learning. I choose Hiarcs for black solely because of its positional
>>>>learning. Positional learning is important in this one opening match since it
>>>>will be able to learn and improve its next play based on the same opening.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe 8.Nxe6 is not a forced win for white. Maybe Kasparov can study it and use
>>>>it in some high profile match against computers since most of the programmers
>>>>might put it in their books thinking its a forced win for white.
>>>
>>>Interesting test. I think you've shown that the position after 8.Nxe6 is roughly
>>>equal when played by two opponents with near perfect board sight and no
>>>emotions.
>>
>>Near perfect board sight? :)
>>
>>Shredder 6 and Hiarcs 7.32 have in fact no idea what is going on here.
>>White has a long-lasting positional advantage for the piece and will finally win
>>material and the game. Nobody dares to play 7...h6? in Correspondence games
>>because it is suicide.
>>
>>This position is a "Buch mit 7 Siegeln" for a Computer :)
>>Shredder 7.04 gives high score for white but it does not play the best moves.
>>
>>Michael
>
>Some questions:
>1)Did you beat programs with white after 7...h6?

No, but I also did not lose or draw against any program after h6 :)

>2)Can you give examples when you claim that shredder7.04 does not play the best
>moves?

I have a theoretical articel about this line. Shredder analysed some critical
positions.
One example:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.09.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "30"]
[EventDate "2003.09.15"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Ng5 Ngf6 6. Bd3 e6 7. N1f3 h6 8.
Nxe6 fxe6 9. Bg6+ Ke7 10. O-O Qc7 11. Re1 Kd8 12. c4 Bb4 13. Bd2 Bxd2 14. Qxd2
Nf8 15. Bc2 Bd7 *

Shredder 7.04 likes to play a4-a5-a6 here for a long time.

Michael

>
>I never analyzed the line because I do not play the opening with white or with
>black and my experience in tournament games is usually not in positions when one
>side sacrifice a piece.
>
>Uri



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