Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 09:22:08 09/22/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 22, 2003 at 10:31:53, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 22, 2003 at 08:46:18, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On September 21, 2003 at 22:10:52, Dave Gomboc wrote: >> >>>On September 21, 2003 at 20:04:21, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On September 20, 2003 at 16:12:18, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>> >>>>no way they could predict he would go caro-kann, so the statistical chance in a >>>>4000 move book this line was there till nxe6 is like zero. >>> >>>The GMs doing DB's opening tuning had that position up and running on DB -- >>>briefly -- as they were booking it up. It could be that they saw it would play >>>Nxe6 out of the extended book, saw that it liked its position as White there, >>>and left it alone. Whether it was in the small book or the extended book, the >>>important thing is that DB was comfortable playing Nxe6 on its own, and they let >>>it do so. >>> >>>Dave >> >>That's just another BS marketing story which is not true. >> >>Just like the marketing story that in a 12 stone double rook endgame deep blue >>managed to keep a draw because every move was perfectly played thanks to an >>incredible big endgamedatabase. >> >>In fact marketing department said something even more overreacted, 30 seconds >>after the game had ended in a draw. >> >>It's here just like that too. >> >>Those GMs didn't even have the time to prepare caro-kann further than move 5, >>let me assure you that. >> >>4000 bookmoves that's something very very tiny! >> >>Also you enter 4000 bookmoves eyes closed in 8 days. >> >>Kure told he usually enters around 2000 bookmoves an hour. > >If your claims is correct then it means that he cannot have a good book. >You cannot be sure of no errors with 2000 moves per hour. > >There are a lot of lines that you do not know how to evaluate >and you need to analyze them before deciding if to put them or not to put them >in a manually generated book. Uri... You and I have had _many_ discussions. From them I have concluded that you are a very bright person. But when you try to talk reality with Vincent, I get the _opposite_ opinion. :) Of course you can't do 2000 moves an hour. Unless you have an already-prepared set of moves and are just typing them in. Vincent just rambles, and is really an _excellent_ random number generator since most of his numbers are random, irrelevant, and always inaccurate. > >Analyzing them is not only deciding if they are good or bad but also analyzing >if the specific program knows to play well after them. Correct. And this takes time. I did this for 15 years with Cray Blitz. I did good to enter a few _lines_ in an hour, where the lines might have 50-100 moves total, if I was lucky. > > >> >>So for the experienced openingsbook creators here, 4000 bookmoves is just 2 >>hours. >> >>That typically describes the contribution of the GM's to the openingsbook. >> >>Hsu always believed in autogenerated books. >> >>Only in october 1997 that believe was interrupted rudely by Kure who with a very >>poor program, managed to score many points, just based uponb ook. > >Nonsense. > >Kurt played a tournament when both sides use the same book and Fritz scored >better than programs like ruffian. >Fritz is not the best program today(shredder is better) but it is not better >than Ruffian because of opening book. Vincent is convinced that the opening book is the end-all for computer chess. It gives him a convenient excuse every year "I got into a killer-book line prepared against me..." It is important. It is not _that_ important. > >I also remember that >Kurt also found that Ruffian does slightly better against the commercial >programs when both sides use their own books and not when both sides use an >external book and play both sides of every opening. > >Uri
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