Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 18:28:54 09/27/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 27, 2003 at 18:02:37, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>On September 26, 2003 at 19:19:01, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On September 26, 2003 at 18:34:12, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On September 26, 2003 at 18:22:32, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 26, 2003 at 17:46:06, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 26, 2003 at 16:49:22, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 25, 2003 at 23:02:20, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On September 25, 2003 at 12:53:42, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2003 at 09:41:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2003 at 09:15:09, José de Jesús García Ruvalcaba wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2003 at 08:26:21, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>ICGA asked me to Call for participation in the world championship 2003.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>So far only 3 programs subscribed to join the world championship computerchess.
>>>>>>>>>>>DIEP is one of them, i guess Brutus the other one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>And there three types of people: those who can count and those who can not.
>>>>>>>>>>José (:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>P.S. Good luck and lots of fun the world championship!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ah just had email from Stefan, they all didn't know you had to register 'so
>>>>>>>>>soon'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Usually world champs most things get organized at the tournament day itself,
>>>>>>>>>i remember especially the paniccing phase 1 short before the world champs
>>>>>>>>>started in October 1997, Paris :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Not a single organizer there from the home organisation (so not ICGA) spoke a
>>>>>>>>>word English (and my english isn't that good either, for sure in 1997 it was
>>>>>>>>>horror & co too), Dutch or German and my French is horrible, so i just sat
>>>>>>>>>down at a chair, installed my computer and just guessed what the hand movements
>>>>>>>>>of the home organisation meant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>They must have guessed in advance to only receive French speaking participants,
>>>>>>>>>a normal assumption for French organisers :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That's really unfair. The 1997 World Championship organization in Paris was
>>>>>>>>great. Remember that we were playing not in some obscure university hall, we
>>>>>>>>were playing in the "Palais de la Bourse".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There were good things and bad things. i bet it was great for french speaking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>bad was all the neonazi demonstrations and the real long waiting times to just
>>>>>>>get past the 2 security checks each time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>bad was not having any internet there or any other contacts to the outside
>>>>>>>world, i would not be able to imagine in 2003 to be without internet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>publicity was real bad of the tournament.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>nothing online. really nothing. i remember thorsten czub phoning during the
>>>>>>>rounds to the outside world at his mobile phone the results, otherwise they
>>>>>>>wouldn't even know the results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So publicity was non existing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Considering the huge staff of frenchmen running in panic mode around during the
>>>>>>>whole tournament that was really a bloody shame, but what we would call here
>>>>>>>'typical french chaosmanagement' :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bad was that it took so long to just get outside of the building to just get 1
>>>>>>>small bread for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good was that each morning when walking to the tournament hall i could order for
>>>>>>>if i remember well 6 franc or something a big fresh bread at a breadshop. That
>>>>>>>tasted real good!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>bad was fact that there was still too many world titles then. There were just 3
>>>>>>>competitors if i remember well for the professional world title. Virtual chess,
>>>>>>>CSTal and Fritz.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good was that after a few days there was very cheap drinks IN the tournament
>>>>>>>hall supplied by organisation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good was that it was possible to walk around without problems in the tournament
>>>>>>>hall, in 2001 maastricht for example i found the location a bloody shame. They
>>>>>>>corrected that great in 2002 though in Maastricht.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>OK, so in short the good parts were the french bread and free drinks and that it
>>>>>>was possible to walk during the rounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you like the french bread you should try our chess programs. Some of them
>>>>>>would give you a good run for the money. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>Well meeting each culture at a world champs is real important and leaves an
>>>>>impression that lasts forever.
>>>>>
>>>>>But the french bread,.... everyone must try it :)
>>>>>
>>>>>But the Tiger, well perhaps it plays me to french bread, so let's not try it too
>>>>>soon :)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The main problem I remember there was AMD. They sponsored the event and provided
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh the hardware, well Kallisto was sponsored a PII300 by intel. Kallisto however
>>>>>>>was still 16 bits and way faster (like 50% or some insane big diff) on the
>>>>>>>233Mhz K7 that Jan Louwman had managed to get too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So officially Kallisto ran on that PII300 but in reality diep ran at it. You
>>>>>>>couldn't get that cpu in any shop at that time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When i entered with that machine the tournament hall i was amazed to see that
>>>>>>>half the tournament was carrying a PII300 with him :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The toledo2000 programmer was not understanding that his DOS just went up to
>>>>>>>64MB hashtables instead of the full 128MB that he had on the PII300 machine :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But i guess the real bad thing from world champs 1997 in my memory is fact that
>>>>>>>only search depth mattered there really, assuming a debugged program. I lost
>>>>>>>game after game thanks to simple tactical errors. 8 ply search for a few moves
>>>>>>>and DANG opponent starts smiling "i win a piece!".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ah well, so that can be put in the "good" column I guess: you discovered there
>>>>>>that in chess your are helpless if your opponent outsearches you significantly,
>>>>>>and that you'd better debug your program before the start of the tournament.
>>>>>
>>>>>it was tested in 1997 with 1000 games auto232 by Jan Louwman. Without that i bet
>>>>>it would have crashed like so many others :)
>>>>>
>>>>>Well crashing is part of the fun...
>>>>>
>>>>>Nowadays some find it bad to crash, but it's part of life.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ask the winners of the previous 2 world champs. I remember they crashed last 18
>>>>>games they played there around 30 times?
>>>>>
>>>>>>You could have discovered that at home, but well. Wisdom is wisdom.
>>>>>
>>>>>You don't want to miss the fun 500 processors are going to give in that respect.
>>>>>
>>>>>In fact i might get 1 or 2 testruns at 500 processors for 1 hour or so.
>>>>>
>>>>>Coming monday morning very early i will have 1 such testruns (those get
>>>>>scheduled automatically but because the machine is never empty some
>>>>>administrator must clean by hand the whole machine and let this run, so
>>>>>practically it only happens when they have maintenance at the machine) so that's
>>>>>very interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some countrymen of yours can't in fact wait for that output. Expected
>>>>>efficiencyspeedup is a bit less than 37.3%, so you can do the match with 125GB
>>>>>hashtables at 1 position from
>>>>>
>>>>>Nataf - Svidler (Fressinet)
>>>>>
>>>>>As you know i managed to help Nataf in FIDE world champs by 'psychologically
>>>>>motivating' him.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hopefully this 500 processor run helps too:
>>>>> http://www.nao-cc.com/naocc/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>That is what it will analyze some line that is in the 'psychological' interest
>>>>>of my friend :)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In RGCC at the time some people like Bruce and Bob just posted their believe
>>>>>>>that search depth mattered and the rest was not important at all, especially a
>>>>>>>good evaluation wouldn't matter at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well how they were proven wrong later of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As far as I know nothing has been proved, either way, in this area.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is not real true.
>>>>>
>>>>>Please delete your current evaluation function and replace it with tiger 1.0
>>>>>evaluation functions, preprocessing etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just make the search the same like it is now and go compare.
>>>>>
>>>>>I bet that it will not kick any commercial engine that tiger 1.0 when compared
>>>>>to the current version.
>>>>>
>>>>>>The strength of computers at chess comes from a combination of good search
>>>>>>techniques and reasonable evaluation, with some emphasis still today on search.
>>>>>>Don't forget what you have learned in 1997...
>>>>>
>>>>>No that's not true. You *can* get another 5 ply easily by using a dumber
>>>>>evaluation function type Cilkchess.
>>>>
>>>>plies are unimportant amd it means nothing.
>>>>It even does not mean tactical strength because if you prune good lines by null
>>>>move pruning you can miss tactics.
>>>>
>>>>Christophe also did not say that reasonable evaluation is unimportant so your
>>>>example proves nothing.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>the only improvements i see in tiger since version 0.0001 which impressed
>>>tactically in paderborn a lot of years ago when operated by Thorsten Czub,
>>>is that tigers evaluation has become better.
>>>
>>>I see not a single other improvement in tiger that i find worth mentionning.
>>
>>
>>
>>Fortunately I do not work in the purpose of impressing you.
>>
>>If I did, maybe I would look for a 501 processors computer... That's as
>>impressive as useless, but maybe some like it...
>
>what's wrong with going lossless a few plies deeper?
What is wrong is the idea of stacking a pile of hardware that *nobody* will ever
really use for that purpose and to claim any superiority from that.
Christophe
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.